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| Solve the Voynich to save the world |
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Posted by: Koen G - 02-08-2020, 10:17 AM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (33)
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A hypothetical scenario:
The president (you know, the president) had a dream that the Voynich manuscript must be solved within a year, or the world will be destroyed. He learns that you are, like, the world's greatest expert on this subject, so he gives you a call: you get unlimited resources and complete authority. Everybody has to do what you say, as long as it is with the purpose of discovering the truth about the manuscript. The only limitation is that you cannot perform destructive tests on the MS itself.
What do you do?
Who do you contact? What kind of people do you look for and which assignments do you give them?
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| Colettine Poor Clares |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 29-07-2020, 08:21 PM - Forum: Imagery
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Investigations of certain VMs illustrations have produced connections with particular historical sources such as artistic images and records of actual events, along with other documents. In several individual lines of investigation, the connections are grounded to sources with good historical provenance. Taken in summation, the details of historical provenance, from Melusine to the Golden Fleece, either imply or strongly suggest a connection to the historical Duchy of Burgundy in a period after 1430.
Investigation of the VMs rainbows in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is discussion of long standing. Rainbows can be connected to anything from T. Rex to a '57 Cadillac, not to overlook Noah's arc, though the best suggestion was the medieval artistic use of a double rainbow as a divine throne. However, the VMs throne is empty. Is the missing occupant Christian of Classical? The evidence is insufficient.
Now, limit the investigation to Burgundy in the time after 1430 and what can be found? Nothing - should be the expected result, but history provides information about La sainte Hostie de Dijon. Quite a significant historical event at the time, The throne is a rainbow.
Every VMs investigator has wondered about the 'nymphs'. Are they personifications of this or that? Are historical or mythical characters hidden among them? Is that Lady Bertilak? What if the prior conditions [Burgundy post 1430) are taken into account?
Well, you read the title, here they are.
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And here is Colette of Corbie.
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They clearly were in the Duchy of Burgundy at the time selected. Colette died in 1447. They were supported by Philip the Good and his wife, Isabella. In the KBR library of Philip the Good, there are two books titled, Vie de soeur Colette, authored by Pierre De Vaux, produced about 1460 in Flanders. [ms. 6048 and ms. 10988; the second has a couple illustrations.]
This is not to say that there was a connection, real or imaginary, between these religious women and the VMs nymphs. However, this is intended to open a window to historical facts and events which were occurring at that time.
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| A Florentine grain dealer's ledger |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 29-07-2020, 07:41 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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Citation: Florentine Grain Dealer Account Book, 1466-1524. (SPC) MSS BH 005 COCH
Inspired by Helmut's comment about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I decided to do a deep dive into Google Images looking for medieval ledgers and trade books. I'm sure if I understood Italian that would be a big help, but somehow I still imagine I wouldn't be able to reliably transcribe this page into normal Roman letters and Arabic numerals. Especially the last line. Is this just my modern eye not used to a very different but commonly readable type of medieval script, or is this the intentional use of obfuscation to keep sensitive information private?
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| On purpose |
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Posted by: Mark Knowles - 29-07-2020, 05:12 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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I read people often write about what the purpose of the Voynich manuscript was. Why did the author write it? What function did it serve?
I seems to be a singular document, so to some people there must have been a singular purpose.
It is natural to view things in very functional terms. However in our own lives all the things we do are not governed by quite so functional goals.
Lots of people do things for rather nebulous reasons. If we ask why someone is researching the Voynich then they might answer, because they enjoy it. Of course, enjoyment could be said to be some kind of functional goal, neurologically speaking.
I suppose I wonder if the author(s) wrote the manuscript in whole or in part out of enjoyment, as a puzzle, a challenge or just an entertaining pastime.
Of course there likely was more than one motive for writing it, but I don't see why we should not consider pure pleasure as a significant motivating factor.
So many of the things we do are done out of pleasure.
Why are you eating pasta for dinner? Because I like it.
Why are you going to the theatre? Because I enjoy it.
Why are you reading that detective novel? Because it entertains me.
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| Masterpiece? |
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Posted by: Koen G - 27-07-2020, 11:05 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
- Replies (24)
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I was browsing around and came across this quote on Claus Schmeh's site You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
Quote:[Rene] could also imagine that the manuscript is someone’s masterpiece, to be used to enter one of the secret societies that existed at the time.
It's the first time I remember hearing of this practice. Was this done in the early 15th century? What kind of societies would we be talking about? Or is this purely hypothetical since they would have been secret?
I find this idea intriguing but know very little about it.
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| What did the nymph on the mid-left edge of f80v originally have in her hand? |
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Posted by: RenegadeHealer - 25-07-2020, 12:04 AM - Forum: Imagery
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I couldn't find a previous discussion on this.
It looks like some written characters, or a rough initial sketch of an object to be held in her hand, was originally planned for this picture, and then abandoned. Maybe partially erased.
I almost put this thread in Marginalia, which didn't feel quite right. When I looked close and long enough, I was less and less sure this was a written word in any script or language.
I'm also open to the possibility that this is just a stain that occurred in a weird location.
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| Trying to see examples of Johannes Hartlieb's handwriting |
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Posted by: MichelleL11 - 19-07-2020, 06:48 PM - Forum: Codicology and Paleography
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Although I greatly respect the support for the view that Johannes Hartlieb is a bit too late and probably "too famous" (what would be the chances?) to be the VM author, I did want to see his handwriting, if possible.
As kindly provided by Helmut Winkler in this thread:
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exemplars of his handwriting are available in Frank Furbeth's book, Johannes Hartlieb, Untersuchungen zu Leben und Werk, specifically page 280.
But I've either read too much of it or that specific page is somehow blocked from me. I even tried logging in with another computer but I guess the address is the same(?) so I was similarly blocked.
Direct link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If someone could retrieve that page and post it, I'd be really grateful.
I also note that there may be the same handwriting samples at Karl Drescher, "Johann Hartlieb" Eurphorion vol (26 or maybe 25,the cites are inconsistent) (1924) at page 348 but this seems less likely to be available -- probably because of copyright, or maybe just chance, I've only found older volumes of this German literary magazine available online.
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| VMs f57v: Subtle patterns |
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Posted by: R. Sale - 19-07-2020, 05:57 PM - Forum: Imagery
- Replies (8)
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The 4 x 17 symbol sequence in the penultimate outer band of text has some subtle patterns if the first five symbols are interpreted according to common and traditional methods.
The symbols, given the EVA designations o, l, d, r, v, need to be seen in their Voynichese representations. First of all there are three examples of potential visual interpretation supported by structural placement.
Using medieval numerical symbols of the forms found on Typus Arithmetica, the looping "l' of the second symbol is a numeral "4" and the fifth symbol "v" (actually an inverted "v") matches the numeral "7". The placement of these symbols, two spaces apart is the proper structure in the numerical sequence.
Similarly, using the Greek alphabet, the fifth symbol is the letter "lambda" and the first symbol is the letter "omicron". Here again, the placement is correct. Greek can be read in both directions. Structure helps to confirm interpretation. There is no question about the structure.
Thirdly, "v" is a letter in the Roman alphabet. In this case it is inverted. The same symbol is also used in the Roman Numeral system to represent "5". It is numeral "5" in position five - inverted. Position matches interpretation.
Greek was also an alpha-numeric system, so that all three interpretations could be numerical.
The sixth symbol in the 4 x 17 sequence is a quincunx. The quincunx is used in astrology to represent a relationship between the primary sign and the fifth sign following. That relationship, as I see it set forth, is one of conflict, blockade, and challenge, suggesting a reexamining and rethinking of the situation.
When the path of medieval numerical interpretation is blocked by the quincunx, it can return via the Greek system and then possibly proceed further using the Roman system (numerals or alphabet) - potentially 'inverted' - whatever that might mean. (Not sure how that works out on paper, but it seems interesting.)
The quincunx as a coin has a numerical value of 5/12. In the VMs Zodiac sequence, the first five houses are the ones containing pairs or were made to be pairs.
The patterns are subtle, but real; meaningful is another question. Further evaluation will help to make that determination.
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| How did Currier get two scripts? |
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Posted by: Tom Mazanec - 19-07-2020, 05:23 PM - Forum: Voynich Talk
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How was it shown that there was a Voynichese-A and a Voynichese-B? Please, keep this about Sunday Science Supplement level...I have Bachelor Degrees in Astronomy and Computer Science but they are decades rusty and I was never a Cryptographer.
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