Hi everyone, new user, got interested in the Voynich manuscript recently as a result of watching Koen's Youtube videos 

I was wondering if anyone could point me to a source on the price of vellum in late medieval Central Europe? I have oscillated my thoughts on whether the manuscript is an authentic piece of writing or a hoax designed to be sold as an esoteric/mysterious text, and one of the things that I have been thinking about is the cost to manufacture it. We have about 240 surviving pages, but it was probably closer to ~270, and it was written on vellum with colored inks and includes the hands of multiple people, with many sources I can find online saying five people. Needless to say, assuming it was designed to be sold as a bit of fakery, this seems like a lot of work even if you assume everybody that was working on it was doing it for free. 

Obviously we know that Rudolf II bought it for 600 ducats, which is an insane amount of money for a book, but that's at least 150 years after it was likely made, and I'm curious about what it likely would've cost the authors to make in the first place. My thinking is that if it had been made up by a group of broke university students or someone else looking to made a quick buck by copying a bunch of stuff that looks like a book (or a bunch of books) they'd seen earlier, they either wouldn't have had enough money to make it in the first place, or wouldn't have needed the money they could get by selling it, especially given how much you time and effort it must've cost to write all this stuff down in a way that it somewhat resembles a natural language or cipher. Anyways, thanks for the help, and I hope I haven't bothered your community with my silly question too much 

There's a few common tales eastern spice merchants would tell westerners in regards to where spice came from.
Much of it is also probably just from a couple of influential names from antiquity saying stuff and it being repeated forever.

In the case of cinnamon "forever" ended around 1505 when a Portuguese ship was chasing a spice merchants ship,
got lost and found themselves on the shores of Sri Lanka (as a story goes), from there they figured it out and took over.

Whether tastes just changed, or cinnamon lost its mystique, this marked a point where the popularity of cinnamon in Europe
would start on a downward trajectory. Maybe it just didn't taste as good when it wasn't harvested from the nest of the legendary "Cinnamologus"!

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Please read the above for a comprihensive overview, but the "TLDR" (Too Lazy Didn't Read) is as follows.
It is worth noting I have read several conflicting things about what Pliny the Elder said, but I'm going to stick to this source.

- Herodotus. Great birds take the sticks (cinnamon) to nests built of mud on the mountain crags. Men left large bits of meat for them,
once back in the nest the weight would break it, once at the bottom men would take the cinnamon.

- Aristotle. The cinnamon bird makes a nest of cinnamon (both things from an unknown place) in very tall trees. The natives dip arrow heads
in iron which destroy the nest, then they can pick up the cinnamon.

- Pliny the Elder. Agrees with Aristotle but now gives it a name "a bird called Cinnamologus".

- Aelianus. "Cinnamologus" is now "Cinnamomus" and the story becomes a mix - The bird fetches twigs from the ends of the earth. And builds
a nest among sheer crags (the tree is gone). People shoot heavy arrows from a bow strained to its utmost, this shatters them and they fall down.

- Gaius Julius Solinus. Cinnamologus (we are back to this now) weaves a nest from cinnamon fruits ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ). People shoot leaden darts at the nest.

- Isidore of Seville. Cinnamologus makes a nest in tall trees. People use lead-weighted missiles to dislodge the nest.

Jumping from 7CE to 13CE

- Thomas of Cantimpré. Cynamologus builds nest in the highest trees. People shoot it with leaded arrows to drop down Cinnamon.

So what the manuscripts of the middle ages show is people shooting down the nest from a tree with arrows, presumably from a bow. Right?
That would be too easy!

   

The slingshot does seem to be quite a popular adaptation, however there are many variations that achieve the same message overall. 

   

The mountain crag/cliff part of the story seems to not be as popular. At least I haven't found examples. 
Personally I had taken the VMS images to show mountain/cliff - However Rene notes "The two at the bottom are a bit larger and appear to have some elements of flowers." You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

If you look at the examples above and the ones here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., you will note many of the trees are more "plant-like" than "tree-like".. but either way, I think its safe to say the VMS drawing is ambiguous and mountain/big plant.. things, might be in the ballpark. 

Reading the image counter clock-wise, 

Person (seems like a man) with a round thing in hand, on cliff/plant.. thing
I flipped this image just to show the hand better
 
   

Person (seems like a man) with movement lines shooting up from hand (throwing/shooting/projectile..ing?)

   

Bird seemingly on a nest (Speculatively, I have wondered if the circles with lines coming down to nest are balls hitting it)

   

Bird is flying/falling, a bunch of stuff falls down, so far that it goes through the text. 

   

Might I have a story of the Cinnamologus?

On researching the fancy containers starting on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. my feeling currently is that they are containers for spice, and other valuable ingredients. They also appear in the middle of the ROS (the other side of f86v3). If my hunch is right, a story about the origins of Cinnamon planted in the middle doesn't seem out of place.

Sorry for a wall of text, hopefully it wasn't too boring. I'd like to hear what you think.

There is an interesting ivory vase collection from the 16th century in Florence, in the Medici Ducal collection of Palazzo Pitti.

   

It appears to me that these ivory objects ressemble the containers in the VMS. Many of these, and indeed others in 16th-17th century ivory vase collections from Italy and South Germany, appear to bear close parallels to the VMS. Note that ivory working was not established before the 16th century.

   

   

   

Now take a look at Rudolf II's collection.

   

   

Again, please note that ivory working began after 1500.

I have been trying to think about eva-m a lot recently and I realised that almost all of the instances of this letter within Herbal A is on the one singulion which is f3/f6 (as per Lisa's analysis). 

I'm not sure if this helps us figure out what this glyph actually is but it almost looks the scribe was testing it out or had some other reason to use it over and over again specifically here. 

Also of interest is that it is used non line-final in multiple places in these pages.

For those who don't believe that 'm' is an line-final positional glyph (i.e. it doesn't encode for any information) or those who don't believe it to be an abbreviation for 'iin' what other theories are out there (that don't just say that it is meaningless)?

I just wanted to share this channel as I stumbled on today and thought it was great. It seems like a small creator who the algorithm blessed for their latest video, but I hope it keeps doing so because it was great content.. and I bloody love castles!  

Video in question - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Channel - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

A few weeks ago I ran across a post or blog where someone had found a map (I think) that looked uncannily similar to the bathing nymphs waterway on 75r. But I cannot find the webpage I was looking at! It had a bridge that was in a slightly different position. I think it looked a bit like this. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?
   

The one issue I'm having with this is the Taccola connection. Why would it be necessary to copy some obscure bridges or sun faces from an obscure personal sketchbook, when you readily have hundreds if not thousands of manuscripts with nice illustrations available at libraries, to be inspired from?

I see no point in having to copy two images from a personal sketchbook. If some some reason that sketchbook is important; then why did the artist not copy more pictures, like tens, or more? Why just 2?

It makes no sense. Unless you're a relative of Taccola and have eyes on his manuscript every day.

Otherwise, why not just go to the library and take one of the many engineering books, or Konrad Kyeser instead?

_______________________________________

Edit KG: I am hijacking the first post to add this overview of Taccola-related MSS by Ed:

(08-10-2026, 06:43 PM)DG97EEB wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.TACCOLA — AUTOGRAPHS
- Munich, BSB Clm 197,II — De ingeneis I–II + "Notebook" (c.1419–c.1450; KdiH gives 1441) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Florence, BNCF Palatino 766 — De ingeneis III–IV, dedicated to Sigismund (c.1431–1433) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Munich, BSB Clm 28800 — De machinis (completed 1449) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
COPIES OF DE MACHINIS
- Paris, BnF lat. 7239 — Paolo Santini copy (1459?, Venice; before 1475) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- New York Public Library, Spencer Coll. MS 136 ("Codex Wilczek II") — 15th-c. copy, exact date not established — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Venice, Marciana Lat. VIII, 40 (=2941) — later excerpts, date not established — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
DERIVATIVE COMPILATIONS
- London, BL Add MS 34113 — excerpts from De ingeneis, De machinis and Francesco di Giorgio's Codicetto (2nd half 15th c.; additions dated 1612) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Dresden, SLUB — military-technical miscellany with drawings after Taccola, Valturio, Francesco di Giorgio (c.1440–1460, per Handschriftenportal) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RELATED
- Vatican, BAV Urb. lat. 1757 — Francesco di Giorgio, Codicetto, free copies after Taccola (c.1465–1470/76) — You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Florence, BNCF Palatino 767 — later excerpts (date not established) — no link

I thought of this after seeing a theory mentioned in one of Voynich Talk's videos that each glyph could be a word and if we try substituting them with some words in English or any other language we'll get same few words repeating again and again. 

But what if the author/s of the manuscript generated the text by repeating the same words (throwing in a few more rare words here and there) over and over again with no grammar just substituting the letters/sounds in their native language with new glyphs they invented? Basically simple substitution just no real meaning behind the text. 

Personally I don't think that's the case but could be worth considering as it might explain some properties of the manuscript, and I wanted to check if a similar idea was discussed before and whether someone tried mapping Voynich words to existing languages to see if some substitutions provide consistent results.

Since deciphering Voynichese will probably involve identifying an image and then guessing at what the text and labels might say about it, I wondered, what do other herbals actually say about their plants? I couldn't find any complete transcriptions online, only vague descriptions, so I translated one myself. Maybe you will find this useful too (especially if you want to become invisible or have trouble with farting!). At the very least it shows that the first word on the page is not necessarily the name of the plant, nor a name that is easy to predict.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a good example from the 14th century. On page 66r & 66v we find the castor oil plant, which is quite similar to Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
         

Here is my transcription of the Latin. If you can fill in any of the gaps, please let me know!
   

And here is the English translation:

1. Herb name: Pentadatillus; others call it Palma Christi, others Castos Oro guardian of the garden, others
2. Priapiscus, and others Girasol; the Greeks call it Tebeet, and the Gauls call it Perga Major. Herb grows
3. in gardens, fields, and mountains, similar to hellebore. Herb has broad leaves,
4. split like a wild fig tree, and it bears a certain round pod like wild burdock.
5. In this small pod, something is enclosed that resembles a certain worm,
6. common name: cetha. This herb is called Girasol because its leaves turn
7. according to the turning of the sun; just as the sun beams brightly, so these leaves turn themselves with the sun. The flower
8. does the same. The crushed seed of this plant's black pods, when drunk with wine,
9. warm, relieves [indecipherable]. [Indecipherable] is spherical, and [indecipherable]
10. madness, and when eaten it is beneficial against bloating/flatulence, which it solves. Likewise, its seed gives
11. the virtue of walking invisibly, according to what is found in Dioscorides, who
12. says expressly: 'Take nine seeds of this herb during the harvest, and plant them
13. inside the head of a black [indecipherable], and place it in the earth.'
14. And [he says words over the seeds] so that he may know that
15. in the name of the Father he will be seen by no one. This herb must obey.
16. It is to be gathered in October; crescent moon. And while you are gathering it,
17. be clean and wash your hands, feet, and face with clean holy water.
18. And when you gather it, say this prayer: '[Indecipherable], O herb,
19. by the great name of the Lord Atah Gibor Leolam Adonai, and by Blessed Mary, and
20. by the virtues through which God created heaven, earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
21. and by the saints of heaven and earth: O Lord God of Hosts,
22. hear my prayer, so that you may grant to this herb power and victory, that it may be of help
23. to me in any of my needs.' Say the Lord's prayer.

I was watching some Youtube videos tonight and noticed this image being used in one, it made me remember Koen mentioning the 3 part object held by one of the nymphs on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. maybe resembling "clappers", and there was a bit of discussion about it. 

What caught my eye is the monk(?)/healer using tongues/forceps on the person in the bed above the person with the clappers in the lower down bed. There is also another person with them sitting to the left. 

I don't have much to add, I just thought it was an interesting comparison that may incorporate both objects in this section of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and leprosy/clappers previously discussed. 

   


Links to image
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Books is here - Image on 223r
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