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+--- Thread: Vord paradigm tool (/thread-3887.html)
RE: Lines as lists - MarcoP - 15-11-2022
(14-11-2022, 10:14 PM)Hermes777 wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Here are some lines presented as lists in this manner, selected at random:
47% of Voynich lines start with a non-gallows word: it is quite unlucky that none of the random examples shows such feature.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. observed that each of the Gallows / NoGallows and Bench / NoBench classes roughly corresponds to 50% of Voynich tokens and that these classes appear to be independent, i.e. each intersection of these classes (Gallows+NoBench, Gallows+Bench, NoGallows+NoBench, NoGallows+Bench) roughly corresponds to 25% of tokens.
Stolfi wrote:if we let X(w) stand for the boolean variable `word w has a gallows letter', and Y(w) mean `word w has one or more bench letters', then we find that the variables X and Y have uniform distributions over the text (50% `yes', 50% `no'), and are independent of each other --- even though gallows and benches occur next to each other in Voynichese words.
This certainly is an interesting property, but I don't see how it leads to this "list" model. One could symmetrically say that the list is made of a bench-word followed by 0 or more non-bench words.
e.g.
<f79r.19,+P0> solcheey.chol.sain.oral.shey.qokain.sheyky.shoty.oly
solcheey
chol.sain.oral
shey.qokain
sheyky
shoty.oly
And what of the ~25% of the lines that start with a NoBench-NoGallows word?
E.g.
<f6r.4+P0> dar.chos.sheor.cho{ith}y.otcham.<->yaiir.chy
<f37v.10+P0> soiin.{ch'}ey.okoiin.chey.tom
<f89r1.17+P0> qeaiin.cheyl.seey.qotey.qokeeol.daiin.{ykh}edy.daiin.dam
<f112v.34,+P0> saiin.chedaiin.checkhy.lkeedy.qokeedy.chkaiin.checkhol.chdam
I think it should be made clear which properties of Voynichese are explained by this hypothesis. Voynichese lines are made of Gallows words followed by zero or more NoGallows words, but English is made of E-words followed by zero or more NoE-words:
english is
made of
e-words
followed by
zero or
more
noe-words
Showing similar lists in actual medieval manuscripts, or at least actual books of any kind, would clarify the point being made and would let us check if they exhibit the same statistical properties as Voynichese (e.g. patterns like 'daiin.daiin' or 'qokeedy.qokedy.qoteedy.qod').
(14-11-2022, 10:14 PM)Hermes777 wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Recently, for instance, I encountered a study of word pairs by Mark Fincher: Word Pair Permutation Analysis of natural language samples and it’s value for characterizing the ‘Voynich Manuscript’. It is a study of structures between words and Fincher concludes from it:
‘Voynichese’ is not a natural language in it’s own right. If the VMs text is derived from a plaintext in a natural language, it must have undergone some disruption of word order.
But in fact what the study shows is that - in its word order - the text does not behave like running prose. The "disruption of word order" suspected by Fincher might simply be that the plaintext is a set of lists.
I only skimmed through Fincher's paper, but I don't understand the usage of the word "simply" here. Again, without actual examples of lists from readable text, it is hard to understand the argument, but such lists may very well be non-grammatical. If Voynichese is just a long list of words, one should accept Fincher's conclusion that there is no proper underlying linguistic text and this is not a "simple" step: it's the core of a century of discussions about Voynichese.
RE: Lines as lists - pfeaster - 15-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - Hermes777 - 15-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - Aga Tentakulus - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - ReneZ - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - nablator - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - Aga Tentakulus - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - ReneZ - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - Hermes777 - 16-11-2022
RE: Vord paradigm tool - Aga Tentakulus - 16-11-2022