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Can we make isoglosses?
(21-07-2023, 12:23 AM)Anton wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If x is interchangeable with cks then I don't see how exactly that would point to the expletive on its own. To me it looks much like the p/b interchangeability. It would be used as genitive for bock, no matter whether expletive (for God's) or literal (for goat's)

I'm probably looking at this differently (as a linguist), but the two phenomena are not the same.

For p/b, the change depends on the dialect of the speaker. If they say /pok/, they write a [p]. If they say /bok/, they write a [b]. You write what you hear.
For [x] though, the question is not one of dialects but of spelling. Assume a dialect area where the word "bock" or "pock" is pronounced with a /k/-sound at the end. In that case a conventional spelling would be [pock], which is all fine. 

Now if you turn this into a genitive form, you say /poks/. The standard procedure would be to write [pocks]. BUT, a weird spelling option exists (from Latin), where you can represent /ks/ by [x]. To do so is a spelling choice, not a reflection of one's way of speaking. 

So my question is: when did medieval German scribes make this spelling choice, to represent a /ks/ sound in their native language by the "Latin" [x]. It certainly happened, but did it also happen for genitive forms? People like "word images" to stay consistent, so pock+s = pocks. If you write [pox], you infringe on the word image of "pock". 

So why is "pox" more likely for the expletive than for the animal genitive? Well, for one, I only recall seeing examples of the -x spelling with the expletive - but I have not studied this in depth yet. And second, I suspect that when the expletive form is used, people think less about the original word image [pock] or [Gott] or whatever. "Pox" just becomes its own word with its own word image, so the /x/ is more likely.

In short, writing an [x] in /poks/ or /boks/ is a spelling choice, and my hypothesis is that it is more likely to occur in the expletive usage. However, I might be wrong, and this should be tested. The research question is basically: did 15th century scribes ever spell genitive forms ending in -/ks/ with an /x/? If they did, the question "ingredient vs expletive" remains open. If they didn't, that is a very strong argument in favor of the expletive.
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Messages In This Thread
Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 03-05-2023, 10:29 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 12:38 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 03-05-2023, 02:27 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 03-05-2023, 04:43 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 03-05-2023, 08:34 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MichelleL11 - 03-05-2023, 02:17 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 02:49 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 03:04 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by bi3mw - 03-05-2023, 03:06 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 03:28 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 04:59 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 05:04 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by R. Sale - 03-05-2023, 05:27 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 09:16 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 03-05-2023, 10:18 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 03-05-2023, 10:15 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 12:21 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 04-05-2023, 07:29 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 04-05-2023, 07:44 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 04-05-2023, 09:00 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 04-05-2023, 08:35 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 04-05-2023, 09:09 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 04-05-2023, 09:22 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 09:22 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 04-05-2023, 10:51 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 11:13 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 11:42 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 04-05-2023, 02:09 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 04-05-2023, 12:15 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 02:46 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 02:56 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 04-05-2023, 03:48 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 04-05-2023, 04:41 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Emma May Smith - 04-05-2023, 05:25 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 04-05-2023, 10:24 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 05-05-2023, 11:29 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by aStobbart - 05-05-2023, 11:55 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 05-05-2023, 12:57 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 05-05-2023, 01:46 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 05-05-2023, 02:00 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 05-05-2023, 02:07 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 05-05-2023, 03:10 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 05-05-2023, 05:34 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 06-05-2023, 06:35 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 05-05-2023, 07:49 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 06-05-2023, 06:41 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 05-05-2023, 06:36 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 05-05-2023, 07:38 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by R. Sale - 05-05-2023, 09:46 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 06-05-2023, 06:32 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 05-05-2023, 10:16 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-05-2023, 09:54 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 07-05-2023, 08:47 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 08-05-2023, 12:04 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 08-05-2023, 12:50 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 08-05-2023, 01:13 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 08-05-2023, 02:12 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 12:34 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 06:54 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 07:34 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 08:26 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 09:42 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 10:24 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 08:46 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 09:34 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 09-05-2023, 09:47 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 10:25 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 10:33 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 10:40 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 09-05-2023, 11:31 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 12:04 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 09-05-2023, 12:45 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 01:32 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 09-05-2023, 12:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 09-05-2023, 02:06 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 02:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 02:16 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 02:17 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 02:37 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 03:32 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 09-05-2023, 03:35 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 04:09 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 04:16 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 06:02 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 09-05-2023, 07:08 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 09-05-2023, 04:56 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 09-05-2023, 05:39 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 06:01 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 07:16 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 09-05-2023, 07:30 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 09:39 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 09-05-2023, 10:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 09-05-2023, 11:56 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 09:58 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 10:12 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 10-05-2023, 10:13 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 10:53 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 10-05-2023, 11:43 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 12:48 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 01:53 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 02:28 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 02:33 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 03:51 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 10-05-2023, 04:18 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Helmut Winkler - 13-05-2023, 06:45 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 02:47 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 04:45 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 05:23 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 05:45 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 05:56 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 06:00 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 06:05 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 10-05-2023, 06:12 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 06:25 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 06:49 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 10-05-2023, 08:23 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 10-05-2023, 08:45 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 10-05-2023, 08:55 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 10-05-2023, 09:42 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 11-05-2023, 06:30 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 11-05-2023, 03:57 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 11-05-2023, 02:58 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 11-05-2023, 04:08 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 11-05-2023, 06:00 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 11-05-2023, 04:23 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 11-05-2023, 04:30 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 11-05-2023, 04:39 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 11-05-2023, 04:54 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 11-05-2023, 07:17 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 12-05-2023, 01:30 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 15-05-2023, 01:14 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 15-05-2023, 05:56 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 15-05-2023, 12:36 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 15-05-2023, 03:23 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 15-05-2023, 05:17 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 15-05-2023, 05:32 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 15-05-2023, 07:30 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 15-05-2023, 05:51 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 15-05-2023, 06:08 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 15-05-2023, 06:18 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 15-05-2023, 08:59 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 15-05-2023, 09:21 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 15-05-2023, 09:24 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 16-05-2023, 12:11 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 16-05-2023, 01:39 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 05-06-2023, 10:56 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 06-06-2023, 07:22 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-06-2023, 05:20 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 07:19 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-06-2023, 07:26 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-06-2023, 07:33 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 06-06-2023, 11:14 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 02:28 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 06-06-2023, 02:38 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 02:38 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 06-06-2023, 03:42 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 06:18 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 06-06-2023, 06:29 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 07:15 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 06:35 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by MarcoP - 06-06-2023, 07:32 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 06-06-2023, 08:02 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 07-06-2023, 11:54 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by nablator - 07-06-2023, 12:42 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 07-06-2023, 07:51 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 08-06-2023, 01:45 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 08-06-2023, 02:12 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 08-06-2023, 02:46 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 18-07-2023, 07:50 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 18-07-2023, 11:30 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 19-07-2023, 11:17 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 19-07-2023, 11:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 19-07-2023, 11:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 20-07-2023, 06:25 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 20-07-2023, 01:10 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 20-07-2023, 01:41 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Bernd - 20-07-2023, 02:39 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 20-07-2023, 02:43 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 20-07-2023, 04:27 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 20-07-2023, 04:44 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 20-07-2023, 07:55 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 20-07-2023, 08:09 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 20-07-2023, 08:18 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 20-07-2023, 10:38 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 20-07-2023, 10:54 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 21-07-2023, 12:23 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 21-07-2023, 12:15 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-07-2023, 05:57 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Juan_Sali - 21-07-2023, 12:40 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Anton - 21-07-2023, 01:26 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Koen G - 21-07-2023, 01:42 PM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by ReneZ - 22-07-2023, 12:46 AM
RE: Can we make isoglosses? - by Scarecrow - 25-07-2023, 06:20 AM

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