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f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 08:50 AM
To put the exciting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paradigm under further test, I suggest to discuss the plant of f54r. The reason for the choice is that it is the second of the two plants out of my "focal set" with high consensus in identification between various researchers (the other being f5r, where the consensus nevertheless might have been misleading, as we discussed in the respective thread).
Th. Petersen, E. Sherwood and Steve D all consider You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as thistle (cirsium oleraceum), while the Finnish biologist just does not provide identification of that plant.
So is it thistle or there are better matches? -
RE: f54r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 10:27 AM
(11-01-2017, 08:50 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To put the exciting You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. paradigm under further test, I suggest to discuss the plant of f54r. The reason for the choice is that it is the second of the two plants out of my "focal set" with high consensus in identification between various researchers (the other being f5r, where the consensus nevertheless might have been misleading, as we discussed in the respective thread).
Th. Petersen, E. Sherwood and Steve D all consider You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as thistle (cirsium oleraceum), while the Finnish biologist just does not provide identification of that plant.
So is it thistle or there are better matches?
Thistle?
Thistle usually has pinnatisect, alternate leaves and most do not merge at the stem like the VMS plant. The calyx tends to be thorny more than smooth-scaly.
Some of the Centaureas match the scaly calyx, but their leaves do not match well at all. I suppose it might be an original way of representing Centaurea vulgaris, which has opposite leaves and a scaly calyx, but the stems don't branch and the leaves aren't hairy or spiny.
Rhodanthe has the right parts in the right places, but the flowers are too fluffy and the leaves too skinny to match 54r.
In old herbals, Carduus benedicta was occasionally (and incorrectly) shown with opposite leaves, but it doesn't really resemble the VMS plant in other ways and the VMS illustrator usually correctly depicts alternate/opposite so I highly doubt it's C. benedicta (which is the thistle most often shown in old herbals).
Also, I suspect from the way 54r is drawn that these leaves are woolly rather than spiny. Thistle leaves are much more serrated. It doesn't look like most of the thistles, except superficially.
I'm not absolutely certain of the ID for 54r, I'm still keeping my eyes open... I have a few thoughts, but they are tentative...
Cerastium tomentosum has woolly leaves that clasp the stem and white flowers but... the flower head isn't scaly.
The leaves of Stachys byzantina, Stachys lanata, and Marrubium are woolly and opposite, but they don't clasp the stem and the flowers are not a good match. The same with Veronica (speedwell), Ziziphora, Hypericum pubescens, and Cerastium, closer match for the leaves but not the flowers. Silene has opposite hairy leaves and white flowers, but no scales.
So none of those really shout out, "Me! Me!"...
I will accept Cirsium oleraceum as a possibility. The leaves are opposite and spiny and clasp the stem and it does have a scaly calyx but the flowers are quite a bit thicker than 54r, so I'm not 100% sure.
Another possibility might be Origanum dictamnus. It's in many of the old herbals, it's both a medicinal plant and a spice, it has woolly, opposite leaves that sometimes meet at the stem, and it has a "scaly" flower head with little florets that stick out at the end. The only reason I'm not completely convinced it's 54r is because the O. dictamnus flower has very distinctive open scales and the VMS plant has flattened scales, so I'm reluctant to call it an ID. It is, however, a better match than most of the thistles, with the exception of Cirsium oleraceum (cabbage thistle), which matches quite well.
So why am I so uncertain? Because the VMS leaves are ambiguous. Are they woolly or spiny? If they are woolly, it's not thistle. If they are spiny, it might be Cirsium oleraceum. -
RE: f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 07:27 PM
What I would mention here in the first place is the observation that roots and leaves here are basically the same. Only the latter are painted green, and the former are not. This suggests that either they both employ the same mnemonic, or indeed that's some peculiar plant which roots are the same as leaves.
In the second place, note the small "skirts" along the stem. I can also think of them as abat jours or birdies. Maybe also some mnemonic. -
RE: f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 07:53 PM
And what comes to my mind when I see those roots is a wolf's (or maybe fox or the like) tail. Any options for that mnemonic?! -
RE: f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 08:18 PM
How about Carthamus tinctorius? -
RE: f54r
Koen G > 11-01-2017, 09:08 PM
Anton: they look like women's skirts and "Bauren" are male farmers. Also I think Rocken here is a long coat (I'm not a native German speaker).
[1] langes, geknöpftes, Bekleidungsstück mit Ärmeln (für Herren), das über der normalen Bekleidung getragen wird; Mantel -
RE: f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 09:22 PM
Koen, you spoiled the spoiler
"Geknöpftes" is good, that's what we see in f54r. I don't think that we can judge from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. whether they are long or short. For male/female, I thought that "Bauern" is collective (= peasantry), isn't it?
As per brothers Grimm:
Quote:BAUREN, in der zusammensetzung die alte, untadelhafte form statt des heutigen bauern, wovon oben schon genug beispiele angegeben sind, hier noch einige nachgeholt werden sollen.
Quote:BAUERNROCK, m. vestis agrestis, rudis.
After all, there is also Hoellenrock (skirt of Hell?
) in reserve.
But what about Carthamus, does it look like fitting? -
RE: f54r
-JKP- > 11-01-2017, 09:53 PM
(11-01-2017, 08:18 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How about Carthamus tinctorius?
The reason I stayed away from Carthamus tinctorius is because it has alternate leaves.
If we accept that the real plant might have alternate leaves, rather than opposite leaves as in the VMS plant, then there are about 50 more plants that might match (including many of the thistles).
I think the VMS illustrator was careful about opposite/alternate (I only saw a couple of exceptions and they were on plants that looked somewhat symbolic like the one with the bearded-man's profile in the tendril). I base this opinion on having looked carefully at all the plants and trying to determine which parts the illustrator drew literally and which parts were often distorted or mnemonic in nature. I could be wrong, but I'm about 85% confident that the choice of alternate or opposite is deliberate (and correct in the plants that appear naturalistic). -
RE: f54r
Anton > 11-01-2017, 10:00 PM
Quote:If we accept that the real plant might have alternate leaves, rather than opposite leaves as in the VMS plant, then there are about 50 more plants that might match (including many of the thistles).
I think that would be a reasonable admission, because the whole look of the plant is apparently non-naturalistic - the roots are the same as leaves. Also note that in the figure they are not opposite exclusively. They are mostly opposite, but partly alternate still. And those that are opposite are in fact not strictly opposite but look as a single leaf awkwardly "pierced through".
Need to look what Pliny writes upon Carthamus. According to my approach, he should not have written anything interesting on this, because the roots here are not peculiar.