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[split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy"
- [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy"
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[split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy"
VViews > 10-02-2016, 05:01 PM
Hi all,
As I was reading about medieval medical literature I stumbled upon a page about John of Arderne, and a remark made on
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which I found interesting and relevant to this debate, so am copying it here:
"The text in this section is discussing the properties of dragancia (arum dracunculae) and ivy (hedera); the illustration depicts ivy twined around the distinctive stalk of the dragancia, resulting in the creation of a hybrid plant."
I looked around and in fact, depending on the versions of Arderne's work, the same combo of two plants can appear rather different and sometimes completely fused together, really giving the impression of a hybrid:
I wonder if, in the Voynich, some of the plants might be the result of this type of illustrative practice (a single illustration combining two plants mentioned in the adjoining text paragraphs), rather than depicting grafted plants or other explanations?
![[Image: plantevo.png]](https://voynichviews.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/plantevo.png)
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RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
EllieV > 11-02-2016, 03:10 AM
(10-02-2016, 05:01 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if, in the Voynich, some of the plants might be the result of this type of illustrative practice (a single illustration combining two plants mentioned in the adjoining text paragraphs), rather than depicting grafted plants or other explanations?
The most popular example is the oak/ivy combination found by Rene in other old herbals -
RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
MarcoP > 11-02-2016, 09:17 AM
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RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
ReneZ > 11-02-2016, 10:50 AM
As happens so often, Edith Sherwood independently noticed the similarity, in her case with the Sloane MS, while I saw it in the Paris BN manuscript.
The illustration has been copied into several other MSs. The one predating the Paris MS (namely Egerton 747) looks a bit different:
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I think I found four cases of a twining plant in Morgan MS M 873. Their site is not up at the moment so I cannot provide a link to the MS now.
I am most eager to find digital images of MS Masson 116 (Paris, Bibliotheque de l'ecole des Beaux Arts) but these don't seem to exist yet.
We can't be sure by which particular MS the Voynich "artist" was inspired. It may very well have been lost. Most of them were in N.Italy at the time, but at least one copy: Munich CIM 79 (formerly UB 604) was written in Germany.
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This does not have edera nigra twining around an oak tree, but it just goes to show that the Tractatus de Herbis was not exclusively to be found in Italy.
(The tradition expanded quickly into France, but with quite a different style). -
RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
VViews > 11-02-2016, 11:07 AM
Thanks Ellie!
I hadn't seen this found by Rene, and had no particular Voynich folio in mind with my comment, but the parallel with 35v is really nice!
So there is attested oak/ivy and dragancia/ivy in medieval manuscripts... I wonder how many other such combinations can be accounted for in the literature, as you mention oak/ivy is "the most popular one" I guess there may be others?
ETA:
hadn't seen your comment before I posted Rene! These are very interesting... a question though: do all such combinations you found involve ivy or other twining plants, or have you found other types of combinations in this style (2 plants discussed in text = 1 combined illustration)? -
RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
EllieV > 11-02-2016, 02:50 PM
Hi VViews,
I agree with Rene that there are many similarities with manuscripts like Egerton 747, BNF Latin 6823 and others in this tradition - like Palatino 586 where we find the Noah's Ark plant.
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The interpretations of the plants are very subjective. In the case of the oak/ivy we have two researchers independently coming up with evidence that supports their guess really strongly. This is why it is my favorite example.
I can give you couple more of mine - but even I wouldn't bet dollar on them.
We have probable Pasqueflower shaped like tulip and sundew shaped like fan palm
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(11-02-2016, 09:17 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you for attaching Rene's parallels for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. These are amazing images and their implications are not clear to me. In any case, they are very significant!
Hi Marco,
The implications are similar to those in your own work on the calendar. The crossbow Sagittarius, hugging Gemini and four-legged Scorpio in the VMs would seem weird without all those fine 15th century examples you and other researchers found (often independently from each other). Thanks to this work today we view them as perfectly normal in 15th century context. The same goes about the plants id. Without those related examples from the old herbals the VMs plants would seem weird and random. In fact the research to date shows they are very much normal - both as graphics and as content.
Also, to the Rene point I would add possible influences of the Pseudo-Appuleius tradition
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RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
ReneZ > 11-02-2016, 06:46 PM
Thanks JKP, that makes it three.
Could you tell me from which herbal the image is, that appears under the heading:
"Could the VMS Plant Have Been Independently Conceived?"
(From the few images I have, and the great resemblance with Sloane 4016, I suspect it would be
Masson 116). -
RE: Is it worthwhile actually trying to identify the plants in the VM?
-JKP- > 11-02-2016, 07:09 PM
René, when I first started looking at plants, I wasn't as organized at recording my sources as I am now but I will look. I have to run (work) but I'll get back to you later.