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Humanist handwriting in the MS?
- Humanist handwriting in the MS?
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RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
Koen G > 13-02-2018, 02:55 PM
What on earth is that thing that's inset in the text like an initial, top left? It's like a pair of legs connected to a shield by a penis. Which Bible story is that?
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RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
-JKP- > 13-02-2018, 03:07 PM
I've been wondering about that as well. I have no idea what's going on with that drawing. -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
Diane > 16-02-2018, 01:37 AM
JKP
Thank you very much for the transliteration
Since my comments are about mnemonics, imagery and the meaning of the text, and therefore nothing to do with the thread's subject - Palaeography - I am going to ask the moderators to split the thread, or I'll start another one under the correct heading - Discussion of the Imagery.
Very kind of you to respond to my request. I do appreciate your generosity in spending the time and if and when I re-use, I'll naturally acknowledge.
D -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
MarcoP > 14-08-2022, 08:16 AM
A few days ago, Lisa Fagin Davis posted You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where she compares Voynichese with an Italian humanistic manuscript (Huntington HM 58316). I could not find scans of the whole ms, but You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Peter Kidd) shows a page. These are a few lines together with the top of Voynich f94r. -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
Koen G > 14-08-2022, 08:33 AM
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RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
nablator > 14-08-2022, 12:10 PM
(14-08-2022, 08:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still don't understand why people connect the VM to humanist handwriting. Especially knowing that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. handwriting exists. Does humanist handwriting offer something these examples don't?
It took me a long time to see the similarity. Gothic cursive, sometimes very rounded, has striking similarities to Voynichese, especially in some abbreviations, but the letter 'c' is written in two strokes, much like 't'. The humanistic 'c', on the other hand, is similar to the Voynichese 'e'. -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
Koen G > 14-08-2022, 12:33 PM
Right, so the idea would be that the VM was made by someone used to gothic script, but who also had experience with humanistic writing as well? -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
MarcoP > 14-08-2022, 12:40 PM
(14-08-2022, 08:33 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I still don't understand why people connect the VM to humanist handwriting. Especially knowing that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. handwriting exists. Does humanist handwriting offer something these examples don't?
Hi Koen,
while individual characters appear to derive from Gothic cursiva, that kind of script has the feature of typically being "hasty" and sometimes "messy", with characters joined together (the quill was apparently kept on the page as much as possible for speed). Reading these scripts can often be difficult. On the other hand, Voynichese (like humanistic scripts) mostly features clearly separated characters; depending on the sections/scribes, it can have some slant, which gives some impression of "speed", but not really comparable with most cursiva manuscripts. Also, Lisa's manuscript has very few abbreviations: this also concurs to a clean and readable overall look, with a lot of vertical blank space between lines.
Here I include a few lines from one of the manuscripts in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Sang.839). -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
nablator > 14-08-2022, 12:47 PM
(14-08-2022, 12:33 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Right, so the idea would be that the VM was made by someone used to gothic script, but who also had experience with humanistic writing as well?
I am not a paleographer, but it seems reasonable to me to call Voynichese 'humanistic' just because of the distinctive one-stroke 'c'. Maybe there are other common characteristics that I never noticed. Whether it was the influence of humanistic writings or just a coincidence of using basic shapes in designing Voynichese is anyone's guess. -
RE: Humanist handwriting in the MS?
nablator > 23-08-2023, 08:36 AM
(14-08-2022, 12:47 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not a paleographer, but it seems reasonable to me to call Voynichese 'humanistic' just because of the distinctive one-stroke 'c'.
If we are considering a single feature as a possible indication of influence, Voynichese a is sometimes difficult to distinguish from o because of the curvature on the right side that is more or less normal for an o, the only difference being a small tail on the bottom right. Available transliterations mostly identify this ambiguous letter as an o but the presence of the tail makes the identification doubtful. This reverse curvature can actually be found in bastarda:
"exaltari" written with two different "a", the first one angular and curved to the right, the second curved to the left like an "o".
Sometimes there is straight stroke, without any curvature on the right side, which also happens a lot in Voynichese, leading to random a/o identifications in transliterations.
"artis" I guess, not "[h]ortis"
Source: Gotha, Forschungsbibl. der Universität Erfurt, Cod. Chart. B 372 [last quarter of the 15th c.] You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Note: o can be written slightly open, making a small tail as in the example here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I don't think these o/a ambiguities ever occur in humanist[ic] scripts. Not sure if it is an absolute rule, but reading is usually less problematic.