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f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

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• f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Koen G > 09-01-2018, 08:41 PM

  Indeed, it's likely some kind of "easterner's cap".  Put funny clothes on someone and he's from abroad.
  (Always reminds me of this Simpsons joke: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. )
  
     

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  davidjackson > 09-01-2018, 08:51 PM

  There is a word that is repeated several times across these map pages. I first stumbled across it and put it up on my blog You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Then forgot about it....
  
  oteody oteody
  
  It appears 39 times according to Voynichese.com. But this isn't the whole story. We see it quite often in the cosmological sections; however, it does appear in the recipe and herbal sections (but I don't agree all of them read oteody).
  
  We see the word on the bottom right of the Rosette "compass".
  
  
  
  And it is one of the labels of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (south-east)
  
  
  And it appears in the very top left of this page under discussion
  
  
  There are also a number of almost repeated words that appear on all three folios in label positions, but they all have slightly different endings.

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Searcher > 09-01-2018, 10:20 PM

  Marco wrote:
  [/url]
  

  Quote:[url=http://www.thedigitalwalters.org/Data/WaltersManuscripts/html/W73/description.html]Walters Ms. W.73, Bede's Cosmography (England, XII Century) features a diagram of the tides (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  The four circles in the corners refer to high ("malina") and low ("ledona") tides.

  Thanks, Marco! As I understand, that diagram reflects monthly (lunar) four tides, which exactly relate to the four Moon phases: Full Moon and New Moon (high tides), First Quarter Moon and Third Quarter Moon (low tides).
  The diagram of f67v2 is extremely interesting, as I think, the author tried to depict there all three cycles (for Posidonius). I don't remember where I read the full text, I'll try to find that quote later, but now I can give only this:
  
  
  So, I think the three schemes (the left low, the right low and the right top) can depict just those cycles: daily tides, connected to the place of the Moon in the sky (four quarters) during 24 hours; monthly tides - connected to phases of the Moon; annual tides - increased in solstices (neap tides) and in equinoxes (spring tides).
  Davidjackson wrote:
  
  

  Quote:Obviously medieval people linked phases of the moon to tides, even if they didn't know why. Roger Bacon's theory was that the moon caused the tides in oceans, but he believed this was because the rays of light from the moon “raise vapours” from the sea, which cause the waters to move. When the moon was overheard, these rays evaporated the water, which made the tide recede.

  
  The original quote is very amusing. When I read this, my thought that the left low "lunar pipe" means evaporation became just WOW! 
  "Wherefore we must consider that when the moon rises over the sea of any region, its rays fall at oblique angles, as any one acquainted with the incidence of angles knows. And because they fall at such angles, the rays are necessarily of weak force, as has been shown before. And therefore they are only able to raise vapors from the depth of the sea, like swelling bottles, and overflowing waters of the sea, so that they are driven from their channels. These vapors the rays cannot draw out to the air nor consume them because of their weakness; and therefore of necessity the water flows from its resting places, as long as this kind of ebullition lasts. But when the moon approaches the middle of the sky, the rays fall more and more at right angles and become strong over the body of the sea and draw forth the vapors to the air and consume them, whence the flow grows weaker little by lirtle according to the moon's approach to the meridian; and when she reaches it, the vapors are kept in check and consumed, so that at once while the moon is descending to another quarter of the heavens, the reflux begins, since the effect ceases when the cause ceases. "
  Koen wrote:
   
  

  Quote:If you imagine the orb as the earth surrounded by a green belt of water, you actually see the water rise in four high points where the heavenly bodies are above it. 

  
  Yes, I have the same impression.
  
  

  Quote:Also, there are dots connecting the "peaks" to their respective heavenly body.

  Thank you! I have really missed them!

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  ReneZ > 10-01-2018, 09:29 AM

  (09-01-2018, 07:04 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Three pipes have four faces, one has three. This makes 15. I can't think of anything that's a 15 cycle, unless we're talking of half a lunar month.

  
  Without wishing to argue whether the figure has anything to do with tides or not....
  
  The number 15 is quite relevant for tides.
  The main solar tide has a period of 12 hours and the main lunar tide a period of 12.42 hours.
  This means that there is a period between two spring tides (i.e. when they add up to each other) of 14.7 days.
  
  This is something that can simply be observed at almost any coastal place, and does not require a physical understanding.

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  MarcoP > 10-01-2018, 10:37 AM

  Sorry for the off-topic (this is not related with tides).
  In some medieval manuscripts, constellations are represented "scientifically" using dots connected by lines, rather than the classical animal and human figures.
  A good example is a zodiac wheel in ms You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Speyer on the Rhyne, Germany, XIV Century?).
  
  Of course, the fact that VMS 67r2 "dots" contain human faces seems hard to reconcile with a "scientific" approach to constellations. The T-O diagram at the bottom left also looks problematic in this case. But who knows?
  
  [I also include a comparison with f68r3 "doary" / Taurus as discussed by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and others]

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Searcher > 10-01-2018, 09:57 PM

  I think that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. also depicts phenomenon of the tides, in this case - the annual cycle, as, on my view, the four figures are: 
  1. winter - the figure in the blue dress at the top, 
  2. summer - the bottom figure with something uncertain, maybe, it means summer harvest, 
  3. spring - the figure with the flower to the left, 
  4. autumn - the figure to the right with the flask, probably, with wine, which is always associated with autumn, 
  but they imply exactly summer and winter solstices, vernal and autumnal equinoxes.
  The central figure of the sun here must hint about the cycle of the tides connected/related to the Sun and the term of a year.

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Searcher > 10-01-2018, 10:31 PM

  It is interesting, even if it is a coincidence, that the rosette ( f86r ) with a couple of hints at the Moon contains similar pattern as the diagram on f67v2.
  

     

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Anton > 11-05-2020, 05:58 PM

  Hi Searcher, whence is the diagram that's the first one in this thread, and what's the meaning behind it?
  
  I find the tidal explanation of f67v2 problematic. The symbol in the centre is definitely NOT the Earth, the Earth is consistently depicted with a T-O map in the VMS more than once. We also see a T-O map in the low left corner, which suggests that not only the low left corner is the Earth, but that also all other circular corners are Earth as well (only the artist was lazy to make them T-O maps).
  
  If my attribution of large stars is valid, then this one could be Mars, although this star is more of a size of general "mid-size" stars as in Q20 and may not stand for a Planet at all.
  
  Note that the four "arms" or "pillars" protrude from the circular angles, which is also shown in the Searcher's copy.
  
  The shapes with which these pillars terminate suggest to me four different patterns (which may also be found in the Balneo section, at least the one in the top right is definitely out there). The number four suggests four Elements, and I wonder if these patterns can be matched to Elements. I think these patterns should be paid more attention.
  
  If the succession can be shown to be Air - Fire - Earth - Water, then that would correspond to four seasons as Spring - Summer - Autumn - Winter. The two Suns could represent the two solstices. I'm not sure if Moon can be somehow linked to equinoxes. However, there is no strong evidence that these two shapes are Moons, they are rather general faces.
  
  The label in the top left is I think otchdy, not oteody.
  
  I think it should be borne in mind that any diagram in this book would probably bear some practical importance. If it is shown to depict tides, then that means that tides are important in practice, which moves the location of the authorship to some coastal region.

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Searcher > 11-05-2020, 11:23 PM

  Hi Anton!
  
  I will try to answer you tomorrow when I get to my notebook.

• RE: f67v2: the lunar - solar tides

  Searcher > 11-05-2020, 11:41 PM

  As much as I can discern in the text below the picture, it depicts lunar eclipses.
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