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  MarcoP > 09-04-2018, 04:03 PM

  I was wondering if the blank rectangle at the beginning of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might have been left for a "weirdo" capital letter that was never painted. Similar empty rectangles are not too rare in XV century manuscripts.

• RE: f58r

  VViews > 09-04-2018, 05:44 PM

  Hi MarcoP,
  
  As you mention, these types of indents are typical of spaces left by scribes for an embellished or historiated initial, not just in herbals but in many other types of illuminated manuscripts.
  Q8 is an odd one, and I have wondered You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. if perhaps the folios had been reordered, and if perhaps, by flipping the bifolio, 58r could have actually been intended to be the first page of the current Q20 "recipe" section.
  
  In Q20 we also find a page which displays a similar indent(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ), but there, the indent seems to be caused by a material problem with the parchment, which is also reflected in the text layout on the recto side. This doesn't appear to be the case for 58r, as the text layout on the verso side doesn't avoid the area.
  
  So yes, I would agree that this space could have been left blank not because of a technical problem, but in order to make room for an initial or "weirdo".

• RE: f58r

  -JKP- > 09-04-2018, 06:42 PM

  (09-04-2018, 04:03 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was wondering if the blank rectangle at the beginning of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might have been left for a "weirdo" capital letter that was never painted. Similar empty rectangles are not too rare in XV century manuscripts.

  
  
  Yes. And even though I don't like making too many assumptions, I've been assuming that's exactly what it is, space for an embellished initial.
  
  Combined with other small clues (like the state of the small-plants section), it gives me the feeling the VMS was never finished. Given that plague raged through the western world several times in the 14th and 15th centuries and also that rulers who commissioned works often died unexpectedly for other reasons, there are a multitude of unfinished works out there in manuscript-land.

• RE: f58r

  Koen G > 09-04-2018, 09:08 PM

  A valuable observation, Marco.
  
  
  After having focused on the large plant pages layout for some time now, it's strange for me to see the VM text leaving an empty box in anticipation of something else. In general on a VM page, the draughtsman goes before the scribe. But this hints at the presence of a rubricator, or at least an expected rubrication phase.
  
  Although, of course, it may have been copied/transcribed from an example that had the initial missing as well.
  
  But if that's not the case, does that mean a Voynichese initial was expected here? Like a big red "O"? It can't have been a separate one-letter word, nor something that would have been considered a proper image.
  
  And to take it further, does that mean that the "weirdoes" on the first page might be to Voynichese like initials are to regular script?

• RE: f58r

  Anton > 09-04-2018, 09:46 PM

  This was suggested before, although I don't remember by whom. Same thing for the idea of 58r being the 1st folio of the quire.  I think it was even before this forum was launched.
  
  I agree that this idea is reasonable.
  
  However there is the counter-argument: where we observe the "capital" weirdos, namely in f1r, they do not occupy three lines of text. More than that, they are outlined by the quill (the red paint may have been applied afterwards), so really no reason to delay the outline.

• RE: f58r

  Emma May Smith > 09-04-2018, 10:47 PM

  How can we be sure that the space wasn't left for a large and ornate star, which was wrongly inserted above the line by the illustrator?
  
  I don't believe this is the best possibility, but should be considered.
  
  We must remember that:
  1) the stars themselves were inserted, so an illustrator did work on this page, and we would have to assert that two different stages of illustration were expected, one for stars and one for the capital; and
  2) that the star can't have been drawn first, because a) it is indented with the text, so the illustrator must have know where the line of the text was to start, and b) it would have served adequately to mark the start of the paragraph, rendering the capital superfluous. (Note that f105r, which has a star and an 'ornate' initial does not have an indent.) Unless stars have a meaning beyond simply marking paragraphs.

• RE: f58r

  Koen G > 10-04-2018, 02:55 AM

  I don't think the stars were done in a separate pass. The linework looks constant with the text. It's even attached to the gallow by a line.
  
  Of course it's possible that the scribe was leaving room for himself to insert the star, but that raises the question of why it was somewhat awkwardly pushed to the to p margin.

• RE: f58r

  MarcoP > 10-04-2018, 02:32 PM

  I see there are a number of counter-arguments and all the options seem possible to me. It would be interesting to see if anything like the ornate star suggested by Emma appear in other manuscripts in a comparable position.
  
  I agree that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. seems similar: also in 58r, the left margin moves to the left in steps as paragraphs extend down the page: possibly, the fact that the first three lines form a squarish space is accidental  and the parchment has some irregularities that do not appear in the scans.
  
  Another difficulty is that the page starts with kor, a legitimate Grove word (see also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Adding a single letter in front of it would make it a less acceptable paragraph-initial word.
  
  

  (09-04-2018, 09:08 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And to take it further, does that mean that the "weirdoes" on the first page might be to Voynichese like initials are to regular script?

  
  Independently on this idea about f58r, I have always thought of the weirdoes as "upper case" initials, but I never properly investigated the subject. Anton's observation that they are outlined in dark ink also seems important: again, it would be interesting to see if there are parallels in other manuscripts (but this is really about f1r).

• RE: f58r

  -JKP- > 10-04-2018, 06:03 PM

  Folio 58r does look like a large initial may have been intended.
  
  With f112v, I get the feeling perhaps a marginal drawing was intended.

• RE: f58r

  Anton > 10-04-2018, 06:13 PM

  Quote:Unless stars have a meaning beyond simply marking paragraphs.

  
  I recall some discussion about that here in the forum, noting the different number of rays and the fact that the number of rays was back then used to mark different star brightness. So there are reasons to suppose that they do have meaning beyond simple marking of paragraphs and serve to mark a kind of list instead.
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