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Stylistics of the "astrological" section
- Stylistics of the "astrological" section
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Stylistics of the "astrological" section
-JKP- > 09-11-2017, 02:12 AM
Quote:MOD NOTE: Split from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
(08-11-2017, 11:43 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
As example: a curator from the Getty Museum likened the formation of centres in the calendar to mosaics produced in late Roman/Byzantine-ruled Syria. At much the same time, Sam G. noted that mosaics in late Roman/Byzantine north Africa show similar characteristics to another of the calendar centres. The two regions are linked - historically and culturally - from long before the Byzantine period, and it is common culture rather than official rule which chiefly influences forms in art.
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All zodiac-related astrological concepts and symbolism originate from this general area, regardless of whether it's French astrology, German astrology, Spanish astrology, English astrology, north-African astrology, Syrian astrology, etc.
It doesn't matter. where you look today, you will find the imagery largely unchanged for thousands of years... astrological imagery dates back to the Egyptians and the Chaldeans, primarily to the south and eastern Mediterranean, so of course there will be mosaics, frescoes, friezes, and other forms of imagery influencing subsequent astrological and calendar-related symbolism in other parts of the world.
People were surprisingly mobile in early history and they brought their culture, their artists, and their manuscripts with them. A huge number of Ethiopian Jews settled en masse in France. A very large number of Scandinavians (Lombards) colonized southern Italy and northern Africa. Many Portuguese settled in Korea. Many Romani migrated from India to Europe. Millions of Europeans settled in North America, in the days when an Atlantic crossing was long and very perilous.
I really don't understand your argument. Just because astrological imagery originated in the Mediterranean doesn't mean it stayed there. -
RE: Cental European origin
Diane > 08-11-2018, 07:27 AM
Sorry for the late response, JKP
You say you don't understand my response. I was speaking about stylistics - the form in which an image is enunciated - not any assumed or presumed intention for the image.
I have not found the evidence so far presented to support the instinctive expectation that images attached to names of the months should be in some sense 'astrological'.
For that reason, I do not repeat the idea that the series has anything to do with that branch of mathematics (as astrology was considered in medieval Europe). I accept that when the month-names were added to the series of images - which do not constitute a zodiac of any known form - then the series was being seen and treated as some form of calendar, or calendar related reference.
I have, as it happens, looked into the various forms of calendar and calendar-related charts known in the greater Mediterranean before 1492, and in my opinion those in the Vms best accord with a style of mariner's calendar/chart, which accords quite well with the attitude to recording information in the map's late-added north roundel. I'm sorry to say all this as a series of statements, but the documentation for the research behind each of those statements take up between two and four A-4 pages, double-spaced.
This may seem 'O.T.' but in general I need many reasons to reject the opinion of another researcher: lack of corroborative evidence in non-Voynich-related scholarship, and lack of documentation in the Voynich-related writings are things on which I place a lot of weight. But then again, if it were forbidden to critique others' research for fear of being said to be unkind to their author, we might as well close down altogether because nothing would ever advance. IMO.
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RE: Cental European origin
-JKP- > 08-11-2018, 04:19 PM
(08-11-2018, 07:27 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry for the late response, JKP
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I have not found the evidence so far presented to support the instinctive expectation that images attached to names of the months should be in some sense 'astrological'.
The month names added in a darker, hasty hand that has overwritten some of the drawings is probably mid- to late 15th century give or take a couple of decades. I doubt that they are contemporary to the VMS (it's possible that they are, but more probably that they were added later, based on the handwriting style). The VMS images may not be attached to names of the month in the actual Voynichese text in any way.
One cannot discount it being a zodiac series based on the slightly odd drawings. There are many Taurus images with extra- long necks and horns in medieval texts, there is even a Leo in a zodiac series that is drawn like a dog. It's clearly labeled Leo, but it does not look like a lion.
Regardless of whether the content deals with months, month's labors, prognostication, or constellations (we don't know yet), the icon series is certainly "astrological" in the sense of illustrating 10 signs of the zodiac in traditional sequence. The figures, including crayfish Cancer, romantic Gemini, two-legged Sagittarius, lizardy-Scorpius, and tongue/leg-tail Leo, can be seen in other zodiac sequences in other manuscripts dating from about the 12th century to about the late 15th and early 16th century. The VMS starting symbol is unconventional, but I have located a few other zodiac sequences in astronomical/astrological manuscripts that also include unconventional starting symbols. I have even located one in which two of the symbols are reversed (in the wrong months) so one cannot entirely discount the VMS as an zodiac series based simply on the starting symbol.
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(08-11-2018, 07:27 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.or that reason, I do not repeat the idea that the series has anything to do with that branch of mathematics (as astrology was considered in medieval Europe). I accept that when the month-names were added to the series of images - which do not constitute a zodiac of any known form - then the series was being seen and treated as some form of calendar, or calendar related reference.
Astrology was also considered an important component of medicine (it was a required course in medieval medical schools). A high proportion of medieval texts talk about "good days" and "bad days" to be born, to get married, to go on a journey, and to treat a certain kind of malady or injury, based on the positions of the stars. Many manuscripts have several pages of lists showing "good" and "bad" days. Some of them show wheels for the good and bad days or for prognostication. Obviously astrology was considered important to people's lives and choices beyond mathematics.
I don't see a big problem with people referring to the VMS zodiac series and star charts as "astrological" until we decipher the VMS text. The zodiacs (the constellations along the ecliptic) were integral to medieval astrological thinking even to those not involved in prognostication.
Occam's razor suggests the zodiac-symbol rota and "star charts" in the VMS probably are probably associated with the calendar and/or prognostication, and/or astrology in some way, as those are the three most common ways in which they were presented in medieval texts. Which ones they are (or whether they are) has not yet been determined, so I don't think we can dismiss astrology as one of the possibilities, especially when there is imagery in other parts of the text that appear health-related and more specifically associated with stars. Astrology (the influence of the stars), medicine, and healthful living were inextricably linked in medieval minds. -
RE: Cental European origin
Diane > 08-11-2018, 06:18 PM
JKP - For me, the 'argument' comes down, as it has done since 1912, to methods adopted and the aim of what is said and written.
I am only interested in what is demonstrably true - technically or in terms of historical studies pertinent to the manuscript's study. This eliminates (for me) any writings which fudge credits and attributions, which omit material for no reason except it fails to offer support from a fictional/hypothetical narrative, or which asserts where it should demonstrate the truth of some item or other.
The 'astrological' idea finds no support from the primary source so far as anyone has been able to demonstrate; by default, therefore, I do not accept it. I do not care for what is possible, probable, likely or 'plausible' - only for what may permit a true statement to be made about the manuscript and its content.
I accept that a majority may not see their task as I did mine, and also that many feel offended if one does not greet their assertions with enthusiasm, but from my point of view the aim is to correctly understand and describe the object and 'correctly' means as the original enunciators of text and image did.
As a physical object, the Vms itself offers traces of its origin and the evolution of its content. All made objects do. So as I see it there is no point in speculations and the invention of hypothetical narratives. What we have to do is apply to this manuscript the same method, and same body of specialist studies (codicology, palaeography, manuscript studies etc.) as persons do who provenance any other problematic manuscript.
So if there's nothing in the manuscript, or in the body of comparative studies, to justify calling these diagrams 'astrological' then I don't.
Just my policy; a matter of habit, perhaps. -
RE: Cental European origin
-JKP- > 08-11-2018, 07:34 PM
Moderators: Diane's comment (and my response) are not directly related to Central European origin. Is there a place it can be moved?
I'm not sure which thread is best. Diane frequently brings up the topic of the zodiac symbols not being related to astrology, so perhaps there is already a thread. If not... maybe "Interpretation of zodiac-symbols section" or something like that might be appropriate? I leave it to your judgment. -
RE: Cental European origin
davidjackson > 09-11-2018, 08:22 PM
The conversation is rather veering away from discussing of the vm, into a generic discussion of acceptable levels of proof.
For what it's worth, calling the section under discussion 'the zodiac' is purely a question of nomenclature. If you don't want to, don't. But then people won't know which section you're talking about.
Elsewhere I pointed out sometime ago that it's certainly not astrological in nature - there is no attempt to use medieval systems of fortune production - and so care must be taken with using specific terms.
But the overall look and feel of the section is certainly based upon the zodiac, and contemporary (albeit North African inspired) European works exist with the same layout of zodiac signs surrounded by icons. -
RE: Cental European origin
MarcoP > 11-11-2018, 04:20 PM
(09-11-2018, 08:22 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Elsewhere I pointed out sometime ago that it's certainly not astrological in nature - there is no attempt to use medieval systems of fortune production - and so care must be taken with using specific terms.
Hi David,
I cannot find your earlier post, I would be curious to read your argument. It seems to me that you often encouraged "keeping and open mind" when approaching the manuscript; but here you totally exclude an astrological interpretation.
In general, since we are unable to read anything of Voynichese, I don't think we can say that the content of any section"certainly" is or isn't this or that.
Quote:But the overall look and feel of the section is certainly based upon the zodiac, and contemporary (albeit North African inspired) European works exist with the same layout of zodiac signs surrounded by icons.
You seem here to be referring to Alfonso's "Astromagia" manuscript You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and to his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. These texts exhibit the layout you describe and they are both astrological in nature.
Take for instance the first paragraph of the Astromagia manuscript:
"En el primero grado del signo de tauro sube u<n> omne que trahe un toro. El qui nasciere en el sera lazrado & trabaiador & amara mucho el mundo."
In the first degree of the sign of Taurus, rises a man who is pulling a bull. Who is born in it, will be poor[?] and a worker and will fondly love the world.
The idea that the degree of the zodiac sign where the sun is when you are born affects your destiny in life can be described as a "medieval system of fortune production". You cannot get much more "astrological" than this.
The first stone in the Lapidario is "magnet," related with the first degree of Aries. A passage from the text:
"Y el que quisiere saber con cuales estrellas a esta piedra su atamiento, y de que recibe la fuerza y la virtud, sepa que son aquellas tres que están en paz y siguen al nudo del filo de la figura de Piscis, y la una de ellas es en cabo de la cola de un pez. Y la propiedad que ellas han de tirar el hierro es por la virtud que reciben de estas estrellas. Y cuando la mediana de ellas sube en el horizonte, de parte de Oriente, hará mayor fuerza..."
And if one wants to know with which stars this stone is connected[?], and from where it receives its strength and virtue, know that they are those three [stars] which are in a line[?] after the knot of the ribbon in the figure of Pisces, and one of them is at the tip of the tail of a fish. And the power they have to attract iron is due to the virtue they receive from those stars. And when the central of those [stars] rises above the horizon, in the East, [the stone] will have more strength...
Interpreting magnetism as the result of an astral influence, and claiming that it is more powerful when the sun is in the first degree of Aries, is astrological thinking. It has nothing to do with divination, but, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., astrology is "the study of the movements and relative positions of celestial bodies interpreted as having an influence on human affairs and the natural world."
While it is true that in modern times astrology has been more and more limited to mere fortune-telling, in the middle ages it was part of a much wider magical idea of the universe and could play an important role in scientific works like the lapidario as well as in medical works (as mentioned by Alain Touwaide in his 2015 Voynich article).
The similarity of the Voynich zodiac wheels with these Alfonsine works should be considered as evidence in favour of the Voynich zodiac section being astrological. Of course, this evidence is not conclusive and it is well possible that, when we read the text, the section proves to be something entirely different. -
RE: Stylistics of the "astrological" section
Koen G > 11-11-2018, 05:31 PM
Besides the fact that we don't know what the section is about, it's also not the best to speak in terms of astronomy vs astrology. During much of recorded history, there wasn't a clear cut difference between the two, especially in the minds of the people.
Another question altogether is whether the term "zodiac section" is appropriate. But this discussion has been had many times. Personally I'm fine with the term staying because it serves its purpose in communication. -
RE: Stylistics of the "astrological" section
Diane > 12-11-2018, 02:08 AM
Koen
While I absolutely accept your reasons for being ok with the term, it does bring with it a number of expectations, which - especially for newcomers - make it seem that this point is somehow settled, presumably by someone or other's detailed investigations.
So from then on, they are likely to go hunting zodiacs for something 'like'.
The series doesn't form a zodiac series; Peter isn't the first person to observe that the diagrams do not accord in structure with the genre of astrological and horoscopic diagrams in the European tradition.
So what we can say, with the primary document as our witness, is that the series was used as a marker of months: only ten months, but that still lets one use the more neutral 'calendar', and others' research won't be accidentally diverted into (perhaps) inappropriate paths: inappropriate if the aim is correctly to understand the manuscript itself.
As for 'astrological' it seems to imply that any use of the 12 constellations implies horoscopic calculations, where in fact (as any survey will show quite soon) the great majority of such representations in the western ('Latin') Christian tradition are meant as calendars, matching the constellation to the work of that month: the 'Labours of the Months' or as any sort of reference to the annual cycle - we find them in breviaries and so on.
So I prefer 'calendar' for those fold-outs, and in general I think 'astronomical' is the better term, as that greater set includes the lesser and again is without prejudice.
But it will be as it will be.
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RE: Stylistics of the "astrological" section
MarcoP > 12-11-2018, 10:01 AM
(11-11-2018, 05:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Another question altogether is whether the term "zodiac section" is appropriate. But this discussion has been had many times.
Eh eh, yes, we had this discussion many many times.
This reminds me more and more of "One Hundred Years of Solitude" when people couldn't remember the names of things and had to stick labels on everything.
Gabriel Garcia Marquez Wrote:The sign that he hung on the neck of the cow was an exemplary proof of the way in which the inhabitants of Macondo were prepared to fight against loss of memory: This is the cow. She must be milked every morning so that she will produce milk, and the milk must be boiled in order to be mixed with coffee to make coffee and milk. Thus they went on living in a reality that was slipping away, momentarily captured by words, but which would escape irremediably when they forgot the values of the written letters.
While we are at it, we might as well rename the forum Voynich.Macondo