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Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

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• Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  davidjackson > 15-09-2019, 02:05 PM

  (15-09-2019, 01:23 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What makes this pertinent to the VMS is that medicine appears to be one of the major topics that the VMS might cover, and that a student who composed it might have been learning.

  Entirely possible. But it wouldn't have been a physician that wrote it. It is missing most of the medieval tropes that would have been required for a physician. Remember that the main role for a physician in those days was to balance out the humours of the body; almost everything "wrong" could be attributed to an "imbalance" of one kind or another. These sort of professionals wouldn't have dirtied their hands with herbs.
  
  You had barbers who doubled up as surgeons and did the nitty gritty of actually poking around in the human body; and the pharmacist / herbologist, who made up potions and cures. Arguably these sort of people did much more towards curing you than the quacks who went by the name of "doctors". If anything, the book looks to be either a hedge doctor (a generic catchall name for a peasant doctor) or a herbologist.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  -JKP- > 15-09-2019, 09:55 PM

  Renegade, I did a lot of reading on the Paris (and other) medical schools about two or three years ago and one of the things that really stood out for me is that the ATTITUDE of universities hasn't change one iota in 600 years.
  
  The different medical schools were vying for attention (and for good students), were snobbish about their reputations, were belly-aching about academic standards, and there was political disagreement and infighting amongst administrators and professors.
  
  It was amazing to read it. The way we approach knowledge has changed (it's more scientific than it was then) and the basic curriculum has been updated, but the attitudes of people and how they interacted with each other doesn't seem to have changed at all!
  
  
  Another thing that was very similar to university education today is that students often chose a different university for their undergraduate degrees than for their doctorates. They frequently traveled long distances to go to "the right school".
  
  
  One thing that differs significantly is that graduates sought patronage rather than "jobs" (I'm sure they took jobs when they could find them, but society was based on monarchies at the time and kings came and went and often changed their minds about who they liked and who they didn't, so professionals seeking work often had to go wherever someone was willing to take them for a few months or years). Setting up a business was different from now. Now anyone can apply for a business license. In those days guilds, kings, and circles of nobility had power of a kind that's hard to imagine if you grew up in a democracy. They even dictated what you could wear and used the apprentice system to keep the younger generation out of the powerful part of the workforce for as long as possible.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  RenegadeHealer > 17-09-2019, 05:40 AM

  (15-09-2019, 09:55 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Renegade, I did a lot of reading on the Paris (and other) medical schools about two or three years ago and one of the things that really stood out for me is that the ATTITUDE of universities hasn't change one iota in 600 years.

  
  That's fascinating, and I completely believe it! There's an iconoclastic little book out there called You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which I recommend anyone planning on applying to graduate or professional school read. It basically argues that the real aim of graduate and professional education is to train people to think and behave in ways that serve the interests of the powerful. I imagine that — and most of the politics of education for that matter — is nothing new.
  
  

  -JKP- Wrote:One thing that differs significantly is that graduates sought patronage rather than "jobs" (I'm sure they took jobs when they could find them, but society was based on monarchies at the time and kings came and went and often changed their minds about who they liked and who they didn't, so professionals seeking work often had to go wherever someone was willing to take them for a few months or years). Setting up a business was different from now. Now anyone can apply for a business license. In those days guilds, kings, and circles of nobility had power of a kind that's hard to imagine if you grew up in a democracy. They even dictated what you could wear and used the apprentice system to keep the younger generation out of the powerful part of the workforce for as long as possible. 

  
  Sounds like the economics of education has changed substantially, though. It's interesting to consider this system of patronage and the competition therefor, when considering the question of what use might it be for a traveling professional to be armed with a reference book that others around him can't read. He could be protecting the secrets of his trade and discouraging the theft of his book by either writing his native unwritten language in a new script, or by encoding the common language in a unique way (cipher) that only he could read. Or he could just have been a quack, who disguised his lack of knowledge as exotic writing or a cipher.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  -JKP- > 17-09-2019, 01:27 PM

  Speaking of patronage... when people say "messenger" in relation to the VMS, I originally pictured a messenger boy (they did exist), but when I was reading about Dee and Kelley and many of the other people associated with Rudolph's court, I learned that messages of any importance were rarely passed on by messenger boys, they were taken by people with patronage or who were seeking patronage. The Latin word in the provenanced letter that appears to refer to the VMS can be interpreted as "bearer" and that is a pretty general word for anyone who might have a message or parcel.
  
  If there was a book (let's say the VMS) that was thought to have some value, from what I have read so far... it is extremely unlikely that a messenger in the lower stratum of society would have taken it to the emperor. The most important messages (or assets, whatever they might be) were typically brought to the ruler by those who had the most access, those in the inner circle.
  
  In fact, the impression I got from reading about it, was that they vied with each other for the opportunity to take something to the emperor or to anyone high up in the court. Especially Emperor Rudolph, who was not a particularly social person.
  
  I also learned from reading correspondence (mostly post-VMS, but not too much later) that they frequently asked each other for favors (like asking a colleague to bring back unusual insect specimens if he was traveling to Africa or the Middle East for a few years).

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  RenegadeHealer > 17-09-2019, 03:18 PM

  (17-09-2019, 01:27 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Speaking of patronage... when people say "messenger" in relation to the VMS, I originally pictured a messenger boy (they did exist), but when I was reading about Dee and Kelley and many of the other people associated with Rudolph's court, I learned that messages of any importance were rarely passed on by messenger boys, they were taken by people with patronage or who were seeking patronage. The Latin word in the provenanced letter that appears to refer to the VMS can be interpreted as "bearer" and that is a pretty general word for anyone who might have a message or parcel.
  
  If there was a book (let's say the VMS) that was thought to have some value, from what I have read so far... it is extremely unlikely that a messenger in the lower stratum of society would have taken it to the emperor. The most important messages (or assets, whatever they might be) were typically brought to the ruler by those who had the most access, those in the inner circle.
  
  In fact, the impression I got from reading about it, was that they vied with each other for the opportunity to take something to the emperor or to anyone high up in the court. Especially Emperor Rudolph, who was not a particularly social person.
  
  I also learned from reading correspondence (mostly post-VMS, but not too much later) that they frequently asked each other for favors (like asking a colleague to bring back unusual insect specimens if he was traveling to Africa or the Middle East for a few years).

  
  Do those stories about an explorer kidnapping and bringing back a couple of "the natives" of the place he explored to his king's court represent an escalation of this same peacock-strutting? 
  
  Since the VMS's composition most likely predates Emperor Rudolf II by more than a century, it can't have been composed for him or to gain access to him, though it could definitely have been composed as part of a gambit to impress a different powerful and wealthy person, and just lingered around and changed hands. Rudolf's personality and habit of collecting expensive oddities makes it really a shame the dates don't line up, because that would have been a nice piece of supporting evidence. I wouldn't rule out the VMS having been rediscovered and used as part of more than one ruse or socio-political gambit by more than one person in succession, its past obfuscated anew each time. I come back to pretty much every detail about the VMS's origin, other than its approximate place and time of composition, being basically untraceable without a miraculous find of some genuine new artifact.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  -JKP- > 18-09-2019, 02:01 AM

  Renegade, I am hoping palaeography can clear up some of those mystery holes, but it is definitely needle-in-a-haystack research (I've been searching almost daily for more than 11 years with no bingo yet).
  
  
  I think part of the allure of a book like the VMS during Rudolph II's reign is that he was interested in science. Alchemistry was very popular at the time and he supported numerous alchemists. Mysterious drawings and text fit right in with the tradition of cryptic illustration that emerged from alchemical traditions in the 16th and 17th centuries. He was also relatively close to Jacobi, the Jesuit-educated pharmacist who, in turn was interested in plants and who managed botanical gardens.
  
  Assuming the Emperor paid 600 ducats for the VMS, advantageous timing was surely part of the reason. A hundred years earlier or even a decade later, it might not have fetched such a princely sum and we might have known much less about or might never have seen it at all.
  
  When Rudolph died, Matthias ejected many of the scientists who had been near and dear to Rudolph, so it is doubtful he would have had the same interest in the VMS as his brother.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  RenegadeHealer > 18-09-2019, 11:09 PM

  (18-09-2019, 02:01 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Renegade, I am hoping palaeography can clear up some of those mystery holes, but it is definitely needle-in-a-haystack research (I've been searching almost daily for more than 11 years with no bingo yet).

  
  I'm very excited about the recent interest in the VMS in the Czech Republic. I hope that at least one decent researcher who feels comfortable discussing the VMS in English will eventually become a liason with this group. I think Czechia is tied with Italy as the place where a new artifact connected with the VMS is most likely to surface. I've never been to either country, but I get the sense from other people's stories that Italian government and religious authorities put up a lot of barriers to amateurs wanting to access ancient works of art and literature, to deter antiquities trafficking and historical revisionism / tampering. Does the same hold true in Czechia, for the most part, for those who've tried to do fieldwork there?
  
  I'm a non-native Chinese speaker, and I'd like to brush up on my Chinese by getting involved (at least as a lurker) in Chinese-language Voynich forums. Chinese coders are prolific, and China has and old and rich tradition of paleography; I'm guessing interest in the VMS is a small but vibrant scene in China, that might produce some interesting insights and approaches that deserve more exposure.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  -JKP- > 19-09-2019, 02:33 AM

  Renegade, have you seen the posts by ChenZheChina?
  
  He pops in from time-to-time and has made some very good observations about the VMS.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  ReneZ > 19-09-2019, 05:56 AM

  (18-09-2019, 11:09 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[...] but I get the sense from other people's stories that Italian government and religious authorities put up a lot of barriers to amateurs wanting to access ancient works of art and literature, to deter antiquities trafficking and historical revisionism / tampering. Does the same hold true in Czechia, for the most part, for those who've tried to do fieldwork there?

  
  If you mean at the present time, I can only bring the good news that it is quite the opposite. Both in Italy and in the Czech republic you will find a lot of help and collaboration from all types of institutes, including libraries and archives.
  
  When there are limitations, these will usually apply to amateurs and professionals alike. In such cases it will be easier for a professional with a demonstrable research task to get an exception, but that would usually apply everywhere.

• RE: Good historical works on medieval educational methods?

  RenegadeHealer > 20-09-2019, 11:52 PM

  (19-09-2019, 05:56 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you mean at the present time, I can only bring the good news that it is quite the opposite. Both in Italy and in the Czech republic you will find a lot of help and collaboration from all types of institutes, including libraries and archives.
  
  When there are limitations, these will usually apply to amateurs and professionals alike. In such cases it will be easier for a professional with a demonstrable research task to get an exception, but that would usually apply everywhere.

  
  That's very good news. My information (well, hearsay from classmates of mine doing research abroad, actually) is 20 years out of date.
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