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I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

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I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

ReneZ > 21-09-2019, 09:52 AM

One problem is the rather liberal use of the word 'cipher' and 'encryption'.

Friedman did not really say that it is not a cipher. This would require a definition of 'cipher'.
He did say that it looked more like an early form of synthetic language.

One should certainly not call Trithemius' third book a cipher, because it is a readable cleartext from beginning to end. However, there is a hidden message.
We don't have this with the Voynich MS for sure.

All the examples of ciphers in medieval and early modern books are cases where some simple operation on a plaintext was made, to make it unreadable at first sight. The Voynich MS is certainly something else.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

bi3mw > 21-09-2019, 12:11 PM

(21-09-2019, 09:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....

Friedman did not really say that it is not a cipher. This would require a definition of 'cipher'.
He did say that it looked more like an early form of synthetic language.

....

After all, the construction of a language would make its application to the whole manuscript seem plausible. But even Hildegard von Bingen has explained her Lingua Ignota and only used in hymns. The VMS either lacks the companion volume or it is intended that nobody should be able to read the content. The latter can be assumed, since there is obviously no explanatory plain text in the VMS. No side note, nothing. If it is a constructed language, then the author(s), in contrast to Hildegard von Bingen, only wanted to apply his method and not introduce it.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

RenegadeHealer > 21-09-2019, 12:32 PM

(21-09-2019, 09:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One problem is the rather liberal use of the word 'cipher' and 'encryption'.

I can see your point about the word cipher being problematic in the field of VMS studies, and a word best discouraged from here forward. It's not only imprecise, it's arguably an anachronism. It brings into to the picture a whole set of cultural baggage from centuries later, which has the potential to lead us further from the VMS's true source and intended message.

By the same token, I see cipher as a problematic description of Giovanni Fontana's symbolic languages too, and not necessarily helpful to retroactively classify them this way.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

DonaldFisk > 21-09-2019, 04:38 PM

(21-09-2019, 09:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One problem is the rather liberal use of the word 'cipher' and 'encryption'.

Friedman did not really say that it is not a cipher. This would require a definition of 'cipher'.
He did say that it looked more like an early form of synthetic language.

By "synthetic language" do you mean "constructed language" (such as Klingon)? The term You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is used by linguists to describe natural languages which build words up out of parts.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

VViews > 23-09-2019, 10:35 AM
Well, this is obviously a speculative thread, but I'll throw in my own thoughts on this.
The illustrations don't seem to suggest content that was worth encrypting. So either they are not what they seem to be, or the text isn't a cipher. It would make no sense to go through all the trouble of coming up with a sophisticated cipher if the contents of the text is plainly illustrated on the same page.

Regarding the reasons for writing in cipher, in my opinion the motivations may have been akin to those given by Virgilius Maro for his scinderatio fonorum, (see my blogpost on the topic) :
1. "So that we establish the acuteness of perception of our students in searching and discovering these obscure things".
2. "Because of the ornamentation and construction of the speech". (later on he refers to this as "elegance")
3. "So that mystical mysteries and those which should be apparent only to the knowing ones, would not be by chance easily found by the inferior and the stupid, so that, according to an ancient saying, the swine would not tread on precious stones".
I think 2 should not be underestimated. The pleasure of crafting an elegant system, especially one that outsiders can't read. Maro has been described as "ingenious", "bizarre" and "insufferably pedantic" and I wouldn't be surprised if the creator(s) of the Voynich fit that description too.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

RenegadeHealer > 23-09-2019, 12:03 PM

(23-09-2019, 10:35 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think 2 should not be underestimated. The pleasure of crafting an elegant system, especially one that outsiders can't read. Maro has been described as "ingenious", "bizarre" and "insufferably pedantic" and I wouldn't be surprised if the creator(s) of the Voynich fit that description too.

Maybe we should start calling this the mad scientist theory. The trope of the mad scientist that many of us who've grown up with TV are familiar with is definitely an anachronism when extended back to the middle ages. But I reckon there have always been people who have been in equal measures highly intelligent and highly eccentric, to the point of being extremely hard for nearly all other people to relate to. I'm sure this manifested very differently, however, in an age where acquiring, trading, and using knowledge were necessarily social and power-wielding activities.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

nickpelling > 24-09-2019, 11:23 AM

In my opinion, the categories of "language", "synthetic language", "cipher", "shorthand", and "steganography" are modern constructs, and are entirely unhelpful here, particularly when allied with the word "hypothesis" (as so often seems to happen). If people instead were to call them 'aspects' or perhaps 'views' of Voynichese, they might start to find far more useful things to say, and they might also start to find ways of working together.

The key problem is that they all seem to be justified simultaneously. So is it the artifact that is messed up or might it be our modern epistemological pigeonholes that are at fault? (Hint: the artifact is just fine.)
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

Linda > 26-08-2020, 01:13 AM

I know it has been awhile since this thread was current, but i came across a reason that hasn't seemed to be covered, and thought it should go here.

I was reading about Isadore of Seville and how many ancient writings he had referenced were actually lost because he did such a good job of making a compendium of scholarly knowledge that no one copied the originals anymore. Instead, they copied his works.

It seems to me that this could be known to scholars in the 15th century, and if the vms was to be a collection of various writings admired by the makers, and they wanted to avoid that fate for those writings, they might hide the meaning of their copy precisely so that their work wouldn't be copied in favour of the originals, leaving those to continue to remain the references they were and move forward as if they hadn't created his obscured compendium thereof.

So basically, instead of trying to make money, or hide secrets, they just wanted to save the info, not only for themselves, but for the originals to also remain undamaged over time by doing so.

Perhaps they knew times were changing, and wanted to see where the chips fell before making a final public copy. Or maybe it was just to have the information and be able to impart it verbally, which again would not destroy the existing texts.

It might also have been known to them that Isadore's own copies differed with redactions due to changing times, and so having the compendium in an initial state where it could be used as a guide to impart whatever info in whatever style was appropriate might also have been a motivating factor, ie making it impossible to be accused of whatever allegiances or opinions that might have been had at the time of writing, i.e. if it was obscured enough, it would be impossible to compare copies with the original to look for ommissions or additions, especially if it is all mnemonics and personal shorthand.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

Pythagoras > 21-01-2021, 06:48 AM

(20-09-2019, 12:08 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stephen, good question!

...but the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in the right margin of folio 1r suggests that SOMEONE thought it was a substitution cipher. ...

i dont think that column implies a substitution cipher, as there are other manuscripts of the time that have alphabets at the front.
and it couldve just been someones attempt at decoding as a substitution cipher, seemingly ineffective attempt.
however having said that i do believe it to be a substitution cipher.
RE: I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

Pythagoras > 21-01-2021, 07:33 AM

There are a number of reasons anyone might encrypt a manuscript.
some good examples were mentioned.

Another reason might be if it was deemed heretical in your culture to discuss such information,
you might then want to encrypt it.

One example of this could be if you were a wannabe doctor returning to the middle east,
but in your culture/religion, your not allowed to talk and write about body parts.
But maybe your allowed to draw plants, and so you might liken the plants to body parts and encrypt the descriptions.

Although from memory, i dont think he encrypted anything in the movie,
a similar thing to this happens in the movie The Physician.
Good movie.
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I mean, really, why would it be encrypted?

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