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• The Berry Apocalypse

  R. Sale > 29-03-2020, 10:11 PM

  The Berry Apocalypse is an interesting manuscript. Can't see where it might have been mentioned here previously.
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  It is interesting in part since it appears to be painted with colors that are almost pastels.
  
  It is relevant to the VMs because there are several illustrations where a cosmic boundary in the form of a cloud band is rendered through the use of a nebuly line with almost no embellishment. For any who might question the interpretation of similar lines used in the VMs Cosmos and the VMs Critter. Proof of concept, as they say.
  
  And it is further interesting and potentially relevant because it belonged to Jean, Duc de Berry <again>. Also connected with the c. 1410 version of the Oresme cosmos and with the Myth of Melusine.
  
  It was printed in Paris, as above texts plus the de Metz text in the version of Harley 334.
  
  It was printed in 1415. And that's right in the target zone. That's what the provenance says.
  
  Provenance is the key to this investigation. Contributions are appreciated.

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  Koen G > 29-03-2020, 10:35 PM

  It's a nice manuscript. I've been through it before given the time frame, but apart from the washed colors I don't think it is stylistically similar to the VM. 
  
  Some of the clothes are close enough to those in the Zodiac roundels, though again somewhat different in style. The king here is wearing a familiar dress You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (In the first decades of the 15th century there was still a lot of overlap between male and female dress).

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  R. Sale > 29-03-2020, 11:55 PM

  So, taking things at face value: this is Paris, it's 1415 and this is the king. Is this current fashion?
  
  And while the style of those scalloped, laced or dagged sleeves may have been prominent under certain circumstances, it wasn't all simultaneous, was it? The timing could vary with the location. Since all the characters seem to be male, the differentiation isn't based on gender. Could differentiation in this circumstance be based on power? The king gets to have fancy sleeves, but not the other guys.
  
  I did not mean to imply that there were stylistic similarities with the VMs characters. My intention, since a proper, traditional, heraldic, understanding and recognition of the nebuly line is so important to the correct interpretation of the VMs Cosmos and the VMs Critter, was to provide a clear and historically relevant demonstration to that effect. And at the same time to remark on how the provenance of this relevant item seems to fit in with the provenance of other relevant items. It's not like the provenance points to Mazatlan in 1515.

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  Koen G > 30-03-2020, 12:42 AM

  It would be interesting if such sleeves were indicative of station. They are certainly much rarer than all types of baggy sleeves. But I think they are mostly indicative of wealth.
  
  In fact there is a general tendency for Zodiac figures to be dressed richly (if they aren't nude). Maybe to complement the peasants in certain labours of the months?
  
  The "nebuly line" most often indicates a boundary to the divine realm (for example surrounding God's hand that's signaling from heaven). Why do we need heraldry?

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  R. Sale > 30-03-2020, 01:23 AM

  Heraldry defines and demonstrates the different patterns for lines of division.
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  Not all these examples predate the VMs parchment, but many do. Nebuly as a name and pattern clearly does. And if name and pattern cannot be designated, then how can the etymological history be determined?
  
  Wobbly, undulating, meandering are all descriptive and applicable, but they do not carry the same connotation as nebuly, and some carry their own, differing connotations.
  
  In order to understand things from a traditional perspective, it can be helpful to name them with the proper traditional terminology. This is an important example of how that applies.
  
  Then, when you see this line pattern used as a leaf margin or a root outline in the main botanical section, you can say to yourself: You know something, plants don't do that. And when you see the example in the VMs Critter illustration, ask the question: What type of creature is associated with a nebuly line, aka cloud-band, aka cosmic boundary? Suddenly the Agnus Dei interpretation makes a lot more sense than an armadillo splashing in a puddle.

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  -JKP- > 30-03-2020, 03:32 AM

  (30-03-2020, 12:42 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It would be interesting if such sleeves were indicative of station. They are certainly much rarer than all types of baggy sleeves. But I think they are mostly indicative of wealth.
  
  ...

  
  Both in real life and in manuscript illustrations, the more cloth, usually the more status, the more layers, usually more status, longer tunic or dress hems, usually more status, and the more decorations on the cloth (like dagging, lace, woven patterns, etc.), the more status. There are sometimes exceptions but, in general, these were the conventions.
  
  
  I spent quite a bit of time looking at the cloths and remnants of clothing on museum sites. They had extraordinarily good weavers in the Middle Ages. The silk brocades were much more advanced than I had expected for the time. This kind of detail is not usually expressed in illustrations, however. Sometimes it's suggested, but rarely drawn.
  
  
  One of the things I learned about specific sleeve types (like baggy sleeves) is they do tend to select a distinctive sleeve type for whoever is the "hero" or focal point of a story. So in Roman de la Rose, the baggy-sleeved guy is a specific guy. In others, the long dagged-sleeve guy is a specific guy so the reader can see at a glance what is happening in the drawing. Plus the "our hero" convention does seem to change from decade to decade as fashions change.

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  R. Sale > 16-04-2020, 10:02 PM

  The more I think about the common presence of both manuscripts (BNF Fr. 565 and MS M.133) in the library of the duke of Berry, the more it seems likely that if the 'Oresme' ms. is the comparative model for the VMs cosmos, then the Berry Apocalypse is the inspiration for replacing the elaborate 'Oresme' cloud-band with a much simpler version.
  
  The elegant simplicity of the 'Berry" cloud-band is something that is difficult to match IMO. And having both books owned by the same person, Jean, duc de Berry (d. 1416), is that just a coincidence? And as a coincidence it can be ignored? Which part is a coincidence?
  
  What happened to the books after his death? Did they go with his daughter, Marie de Berry, who married out? Or did they stay with his second wife, Joan II of Auvergne? What happened to the books in the conflict in Paris between the Armagnacs and the Burgundians? What might have happened to the books when the Anglo-Burgundian alliance controlled Paris from 1420 to 1435?

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  Koen G > 16-04-2020, 11:28 PM

  I'm very much interested in trying to find the collection the VM might be most likely based on. And if I had to make a wild guess, I might actually go for Berry, if only because of his vast collection, connections, and perfect time frame. So maybe... 
  
  But there is a lot of cloud band variation in the VM, and there are cloud bands in countless manuscripts.. is this really enough to posit such a connection?

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  -JKP- > 17-04-2020, 12:32 AM

  Many paths lead to Berry, but they also lead other places with quite a bit of frequency.
  
  The only explanation I can think of so far is that maybe the person traveled and/or maybe the person had access to an ecclectic collection (perhaps amassed by someone who traveled). There seem to be a variety of influences. I never seem to be led in one clear direction, always in three or maybe four.

• RE: The Berry Apocalypse

  R. Sale > 17-04-2020, 01:23 AM

  Is it enough by itself? One thing standing alone - of course not. But it is not by itself. Cloud-band were drawn with many designs and patterns. Compare the two 'Oresme' examples: BNF Fr. 565 fol 23 and BNF Fr. 1082.
  
  Are there other examples that show the basic simplicity of the nebuly line pattern like the Berry Apocalypse?
  
  If the 'Oresme' cosmos from 1410 is the basis for the VMs cosmos, then it is plausible that a person knowing one manuscript may also have seen the other, given that both in the possession / library(?) of a particular, historical person.
  
  The use of the nebuly line in the VMs cosmos shows that the original creator of this image was aware of the nebuly line = cloud-band = cosmic boundary relationship. The modern, investigative recovery of this relationship and the traditional terminology reinforces the cosmic identification.
  
  Given the use of the nebuly line in the VMs cosmos, what is the intended interpretation of the nebuly line associated with the VMs critter? What kind of critter is associated with a cosmic boundary? It's the Lamb of God, the Agnus Dei.
  
  The library of Jean de Berry is certainly a starting point. But what happens after that? There was a 15 year Burgundian presence in Paris, (1420-1435). There is also reason to look into the library of the dukes of Burgundy during this period. The library that Philip the Good inherited from his father, John the Fearless, in 1419 may also be relevant.
  
  If the original, manuscript images are relevant to the creation of these VMs illustrations, the a person alive at that time, who knew the necessary information would have live at a time largely contemporary with the VMs parchment dates or a little longer. The evidence and the arguments for this potential scenario seem better that any other.
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