• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

reading [y] as a null character

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Analysis of the text
  • reading [y] as a null character
• reading [y] as a null character

• reading [y] as a null character

  geoffreycaveney > 24-09-2020, 07:13 PM

  I'm sure I'm not the first person to consider this idea, but one way to deal with the difficulty of analyzing the ubiquitous vord-final glyph EVA [y] is simply to treat it as a null character. That is to say, perhaps it has no phonetic content whatsoever. Maybe it's a word-divider, or maybe it's something else. Perhaps the author simply liked the way that glyph looked as a very common medieval Latin ms suffix (and sometimes prefix) abbreviation, and decided to use it to end (and sometimes begin) words or syllables or whatever the vords are, wherever he pleased. 
  
  This analysis would greatly increase the variety of possible vord endings in the Voynich ms text. In most languages words and syllables can end with more than just a small handful of letters and phonemes. 
  
  I'm curious what kind of statistics Koen's and Marco's verbose cipher analysis would produce for h2 conditional entropy and h1 entropy, if all the [y]'s are simply disregarded throughout the ms text? 
  
  For those who are curious, I took a modified version of my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which following Rene I should call an alphabetic interpretation rather than a transcription, and applied the reading of EVA [y] as a null character. I have marked it as <#> so that it is still clear exactly where these nulls are in the text. Also, in this particular version of my modified VCI interpretation, I have focused on the possibility of a West Slavic reading of the text (Czech, Polish, Sorbian, et al.), so the modifications of VCI have been made with such languages in mind. They include [d]=<c>, [od]=<h>, isolated [o]=<ch> (voiceless velar fricative /x/), [or]=<w> (in Polish and Sorbian a certain type of Slavic "l" sound is pronounced /w/), [al]=<as>, [am]=<ás>, and [ain]=<o>. These are all minor changes in the details of the phonemic interpretation. 
  
  I have selected the first "recipe" in the "Recipes" section, the first four lines of folio page f103r:
  
  <[P]jecas  rjc#  #péj#Pi#  be#  #srje#  mé#  mas  rjec#  #rjcas  co  dz  cas  c#>
  <co  rjet  iPjic#  casd#  Bjec#  Perjz  jeP  al  bi#  ras  sté#  ral  o  d  jec#>
  <#rjco  rjét  jeb#  idas  jec#  itj#  w  wz  do  jas  b  tal  b  j#s>
  <#jec#  nec#  dec#  né#  de#  icalz  sb#  jecal  as#>
  
  I find it curious that the first word <[P]jecas> rather resembles a widespread Slavic form meaning 'you (sg.) bake': Czech "pečeš", Upper Sorbian "pječeš", Lower Sorbian "pjacoš", Polish "pieczesz", etc. 
  
  This is just one word of course, but the more general idea of EVA [al] = Slavic VCI <as> = 2nd person singular verb ending may possibly apply to a number of vords that appear to be rather appropriately spread out throughout these lines: <mas>, <#rjcas>, <cas>, <ras>, <idas>, <jas>. In several cases it is easy to recognize similar-looking Slavic forms, such as "maš" meaning 'you have' and "říkáš" meaning 'you say'. Naturally the phonological details may vary depending on the language and the dialect. 
  
  This Slavic reading and interpretation is of course highly speculative, and this is only a very preliminary rendition of just four lines of text. But the main thing I find interesting here is the more natural appearance of the text when EVA [y] is simply treated as a null character. 
  
  Geoffrey

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  -JKP- > 24-09-2020, 08:14 PM

  I have four VMS transcripts, one of which is integrated with a concordance.
  
  In the integrated transcript, I have about 30 flags. I set several flags for the y character, so I can search and sort for different (possible) scenarios. One of those is to temporarily treat it as a stop-symbol or divider-symbol. I think the y is a very good candidate for this possibility.
  
  But I don't want to get too tied to this idea, because it is also a good candidate for an abbreviation symbol (perhaps a general-pupose abbreviation symbol), since the position and frequency is similar to how medieval abbreviations were used. It differs mainly in that it is more frequent than one usually sees but... if it is a general-purpose abbreviation (standing for a wider variety of abbreviations), then perhaps the high frequency is not completely unreasonable.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  geoffreycaveney > 24-09-2020, 11:12 PM

  The problem with the idea of [y] as a general-purpose abbreviation symbol, standing for a wider variety of abbreviations, is that one could then make it represent almost any grammatical or derivational suffix one pleases, in any language. In this case the script would give us almost no information about the actual grammar of the language--the rest of each vord would presumably represent the roots or stems of the words, but as soon as each word reaches the grammatical suffix, we would find the identical [y]! Imagine trying to interpret the grammatical relations and meaning of the following line:
  
  "Army viryque cany Trojy quy primy ab ory"
  
  Good luck with deciphering and interpreting such language expressed in an unknown script. 
  
  I think we have a better chance of deciphering and interpreting the ms text if [y] is a null character, than we do if [y] represents an abbreviation for any suffix whatsoever.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  RenegadeHealer > 25-09-2020, 12:32 AM

  (24-09-2020, 11:12 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The problem with the idea of [y] as a general-purpose abbreviation symbol, standing for a wider variety of abbreviations, is that one could then make it represent almost any grammatical or derivational suffix one pleases, in any language. In this case the script would give us almost no information about the actual grammar of the language--the rest of each vord would presumably represent the roots or stems of the words, but as soon as each word reaches the grammatical suffix, we would find the identical [y]! Imagine trying to interpret the grammatical relations and meaning of the following line:

  
  hi geoff
  
  perh voyn manus is notebk writ w v simp lang
  as long as targ aud can comprh no prob
  notebx oft take lib w sp gramm punct caps etc
  also line as func unit comm in notebx bc makes strip down lang more easl comprh
  
  if tru then no wond stat analys not like norm writ lang

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  -JKP- > 25-09-2020, 12:36 AM

  (24-09-2020, 11:12 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The problem with the idea of [y] as a general-purpose abbreviation symbol, standing for a wider variety of abbreviations, is that one could then make it represent almost any grammatical or derivational suffix one pleases, in any language. In this case the script would give us almost no information about the actual grammar of the language--the rest of each vord would presumably represent the roots or stems of the words, but as soon as each word reaches the grammatical suffix, we would find the identical [y]!...

  
  It doesn't have to represent any kind of suffix. In languages that use Latin scribal abbreviations, a single abbreviation can represent 3 or 4 different endings. It can still be read. Maybe this can be stretched to 5 or 6 if the ones it represents are similar to the ones that are traditional.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  geoffreycaveney > 25-09-2020, 02:20 AM

  (25-09-2020, 12:32 AM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.hi geoff
  
  perh voyn manus is notebk writ w v simp lang
  as long as targ aud can comprh no prob
  notebx oft take lib w sp gramm punct caps etc
  also line as func unit comm in notebx bc makes strip down lang more easl comprh
  
  if tru then no wond stat analys not like norm writ lang

  
  Sure, I can understand this, except I'm not sure about the meaning of "comm". I suppose "comment(s)" but I'm not sure about how it fits into the grammar and meaning of the whole line you wrote. 
  
  But if you wrote this in your own invented script, it would be quite a challenge to decipher it, even if it were a simple Sunday cryptogram style symbol-for-letter single substitution.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  geoffreycaveney > 25-09-2020, 02:31 AM

  (25-09-2020, 12:36 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It doesn't have to represent any kind of suffix. In languages that use Latin scribal abbreviations, a single abbreviation can represent 3 or 4 different endings. It can still be read. Maybe this can be stretched to 5 or 6 if the ones it represents are similar to the ones that are traditional.

  
  I'm ok with that. But any theory employing such an analysis will have to be very specific about precisely which endings can be represented by such an abbreviation.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  Aga Tentakulus > 25-09-2020, 05:07 AM

         
  EVA "y" and the word "Taurus / Taurum
  If it really is the sign "9" and it is not just a "Tauro". It is unlikely that EVA "y" is such a fill character. Not to mention that "Taurus" makes it a pretty reliable keyword.
  The hint to the word can be found in the VM drawing for the beginning of spring, and for the possible solar eclipse of 1409. When I take a closer look at the sun at VM, it has something like a surrounding corona, which also indicates a solar eclipse. That the position of the stars also points to spring is surely no coincidence.
  From this point of view it is almost impossible for me to see EVA "y" as a fill character.
  
  By the way:
  I'm just securing some data from Prof. Bax's website. I would do the same, because who knows how long Bax's brother keeps the site open before it is deleted due to inactivity.
  
  It's really only about a "y"
  
  Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  geoffreycaveney > 25-09-2020, 05:24 AM

  Aga Tentakulus,
  
  I'm not convinced by this argument about EVA [y], but I'm very impressed by the chart of the night sky in 1409 and the connection with folio page f68r3 of the Voynich ms.

• RE: reading [y] as a null character

  Aga Tentakulus > 25-09-2020, 06:09 AM

     
  I don't want to convince you either. I just want you to think about it.
  What do I do with the EVA "dy" combination.
  Occurs separately and as an ending. What is it without the "y"?
  Otherwise I have to look at it from the "Taurus" point of view.
• Next Oldest Next Newest