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Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
- Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
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RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Aga Tentakulus > 01-10-2020, 11:42 AM
Or even simpler.
In the same book.
Just choose a September. They are all there.
-bri, is also somewhere
Nothing works without reading. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
-JKP- > 01-10-2020, 12:26 PM
(01-10-2020, 11:20 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....
If you want to learn something about names of months, read from page 84 below.
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...
I have collected hundreds of month names. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
-JKP- > 01-10-2020, 12:29 PM
(01-10-2020, 10:37 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(01-10-2020, 10:32 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f17 is not German. It's closer to a mixture of French and Latin.
116v is a mixture of German, something that has the rhythm of a Romance language, Latin, Voynichese and then German again.
And none of it is grammatical.
It probably *is* grammatical. At least I think that we should assume that.
Why assume that it is grammatical? I don't understand why one would do that without evidence.
We have many linguists, some of whom can read medieval manuscripts, who cannot quite make sense of it. No one is completely sure what it says (except for people who change the letters to make it grammatical). We don't have the same problem with other manuscripts. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Koen G > 01-10-2020, 12:38 PM
I would phrase it differently: proposed readings should first assume that it is grammatical. If words diverge from the expected grammar, this should be indicated as well. Especially amateurs focus entirely on the lexicon and treat grammar as optional. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Aga Tentakulus > 01-10-2020, 01:22 PM
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RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
-JKP- > 01-10-2020, 02:05 PM
I didn't say Romansh. Romansh is a language, a dialect. I've read manuscripts in Romansh.
I said Romance (one of the Romance languages).
f116v
The first part of the first line is German, and the rest of it might be, but the letters are not clear enough to tell.
The second line has the rhythm and balance of Romance languages (or maybe Greek, for the first part), and "portas" is usually spelled this way in Romance languages.
The third line is more like Latin than anything else.
The fourth line is Voynichese and German.
I don't know if this is a charm. It is formatted like a charm and some of the words are very charm-like, but there's no proof yet. But if it is, it doesn't have to be grammatical. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Aga Tentakulus > 01-10-2020, 03:43 PM
I have not written anything in Rhaeto-Romanic. Only romanesque. Seems to be a translation problem.
Maybe the translator thinks he has to translate it into the fourth national language. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Emma May Smith > 01-10-2020, 08:53 PM
On the original topic: some researchers have sought to analyse words by their relationship to one another and sort them into "classes". This was achieved by stating that classes are less likely to occur adjacently (or some other similar rule) and then sorting of words into classes which minimised class adjacency. The nature of such classes is unknown, but provide us an interesting starting point.
Languages can be thought of as head-initial or head-final. Basically, that means whether the key word in a multi-word phrase comes at the start of end of that phrase. Some languages are quite strict, others less strict. But this characteristic of a language is linked with word order, thus knowing the head directionality of a language you can make a guess (a preference) about word order.
Word classes could be used to model head directionality, as given enough text certain word class sequences should predominate. But it would require an input as to the identity of those word classes. For example, we might be able to say, "if [daiin] is a noun then the language is head-final and maybe has an SOV word order." Or, more practically, "if labels are nouns then ... and ... ."
I think this would be a very shaky approach and a null outcome wouldn't prove the negative. Though I can't see how we would otherwise try to understand word order at our current state of knowledge. -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Koen G > 01-10-2020, 09:07 PM
(01-10-2020, 08:53 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Or, more practically, "if labels are nouns then ... and ... ."
This sounds like an interesting experiment, has it been done?
And can it be done? There are a few issues beforehand. For example:
* multi-word labels are more likely to contain at least one non-noun.
* what about "labelese"? It is not something I have studied myself, and I've heard everything from "it doesn't exist" to "labels have their own language".
* to determine word order we need to be able to determine phrases, right? How many phrases per line of Voynichese? Do phrases cross lines?
Sounds very tricky... -
RE: Can we say the VMS is a "free word order"?
Voynichgibberish > 01-10-2020, 10:34 PM
Dear Emma May Smith,
Quote:Word classes could be used to model head directionality, as given enough text certain word class sequences should predominate. But it would require an input as to the identity of those word classes. For example, we might be able to say, "if [daiin] is a noun then the language is head-final and maybe has an SOV word order." Or, more practically, "if labels are nouns then ... and ... ."
Your idea regarding using labels as a tools to find out the possibility of "word order" struck me as a brilliant idea. I wanted to run this passed you even though I'm headed there anyway. I guess I just want your thoughts.
Over at the voynichese website I scanned in only six labels that returned over 13 hits per word instead of the 1-3 return as I know labels are for the most part rare in the manuscript not being highly used words. So some of the labels I found had a count of 86 that was for "otol" and "oeor" had a count of 31. Anyway I figure I would use the highly occurring labels and look at the adjacent vords in the text which are either to the left or the right of that label.
I will record every vord left and right of the label. What I'll be looking for is a pattern or a reoccurring frequency of vords that might occur again to the left and right for these labels. Maybe more often a vord will be on the left or right of the label, I don't know yet. If so this could tell us if the vord is either a verb or object. To me this is really all we have, because a label most often really should be a noun I agree. I know this is a crude method, but I cannot think of a better way yet.
Also a way we could determine if the text is of "free word order" the same vords which equally appear to the right and left of these labels could suggest a relaxed (VSO) pointing towards "free word order".
Once again this is a very crude method.
Your thoughts an here are the labels
okeor (22)
otor (46)
otol (86)
oeor(31)
ockhy(13)
air (74) lol just hunch could be for Sol or Sun