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Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
- Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
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Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
Anton > 10-10-2020, 12:42 AM
This You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in French language attracted my attention, because it features plant descriptions in what appears to be a highly structured way, with many paragraphs starting in the same fashion with "pom" (?) or the "p a" (?) abbreviation.
Maybe it deserves a closer look.
All literature on this MS that I was able to find in Google search is in French, which is a language I did not master. -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
-JKP- > 10-10-2020, 03:56 AM
The P-word is "pour" (English: for) and it's sometimes abbreviated (both the "Item" and the "pour"). "Item" is the abbreviation hanging in the margin to the left of "pour".
In Latin, it's very common to see the abbreviation for "post" as the first word in paragraphs. In Greek, there is often an abbreviation for "Peri", so Latin and Greek manuscripts often have a P-word at the beginning, as well. -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
RenegadeHealer > 10-10-2020, 09:34 AM
(10-10-2020, 03:56 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The P-word is "pour" (English: for) and it's sometimes abbreviated (both the "Item" and the "pour"). "Item" is the abbreviation hanging in the margin to the left of "pour".
In Latin, it's very common to see the abbreviation for "post" as the first word in paragraphs. In Greek, there is often an abbreviation for "Peri", so Latin and Greek manuscripts often have a P-word at the beginning, as well.
Hmm... reminds me of a certain glyph that happens to start an awful lot of pages and paragraphs in a certain mysterious book I know. So frequently that some say it’s likely a pilcrow.
I’d just like to point out once again (as both you and R. Sale are fond of doing) that the VMs seems to be absolutely full of Easter eggs for people familiar with writing and drawing conventions of the time. Whether they’re parodies or subversions or hints or have some other communicative use, the fact is, for the educated and hip, the VMs seems to be full of subtle references to other pieces of culture. Discussing the VMs with people who know the artistic and literary canon of Western Civilization very well, gives me kind of a similar feeling to watching a Quentin Tarantino movie with a serious B-list slasher film buff. Or going to a Phish concert with someone who’s a serious music nerd, and knows their classic rock well. In all three cases, I feel quickly humbled and out of my depth, and resist frustratedly concluding There’s a lot going over my head here. I don’t think I’m hip enough to appreciate this. -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
Anton > 10-10-2020, 12:19 PM
(10-10-2020, 03:56 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The P-word is "pour" (English: for) and it's sometimes abbreviated (both the "Item" and the "pour"). "Item" is the abbreviation hanging in the margin to the left of "pour".
Yes, I noted those "items", I wonder why they need them at every paragraph.
Would be great if someone could produce translation of one of the plant descriptions, to better understand the structure. If I understand correctly, the headings represent the plant names, and then there are several paragraphs of descriptive nature, how you should use this plant. Sometimes the paragraph begins with a plant name, but far from always. -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
Helmut Winkler > 10-10-2020, 12:45 PM
Latin "item", like "iterum" or "ita" is an indication that there is a repetition, "item" is most common in Medieval Latin -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
MarcoP > 10-10-2020, 12:55 PM
Hi Anton,
I guess that Nablator could transcribe and translate a whole chapter. My French is too poor to do a decent job.
The structure seems to me to be close to what you describe:
- title (plant name)
- plant description (about 3-5 lines long) marked with "item"
- recipes, each about 2-5 lines long and marked with "item". They typically start with "pour": e.g. top of 4v "pour totes morsures" i.e. "for all bites"; this corresponds to the Latin "ad".
- title (plant name)
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RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
Paris > 10-10-2020, 01:06 PM
Sorry guys,
Even if I'm French, it's too difficult for me.
I can't understand everything. Only a part of this text.
It looks to me to a cooking book, not a herbarium (herbier, in french).
I notice many times the verb "oignez". It means "anoint", in english.
Anoint = to smear or rub with oil.
Old french is so different than modern french, probably like english
Nablator, your turn
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RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
nablator > 10-10-2020, 02:52 PM
It's hard to read and many words are even harder to understand: a dialect spoken in canton de Vaud, Switzerland I suppose.
Properties of good herbs for treating various ailments... -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
Anton > 10-10-2020, 03:19 PM
Thanks!
On a closer look, I see that the 1st paragraph of each plant starts with the plant's name, sometimes with variations such as omitting the article.
(10-10-2020, 02:52 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's hard to read and many words are even harder to understand: a dialect spoken in canton de Vaud, Switzerland I suppose.
It's complicated by the fact that (as the description explains), this copy was (re)written not by a medical man, but by a scribe who did not understand the topic. -
RE: Herbier de Moudon (Lausanne IS 3005)
nickpelling > 10-10-2020, 04:38 PM
Sounds like 90% of the blog posts on the VMs I've ever read.