EDIT: This thread has evolved into a collection of images and examples of swallowtail merlons. For more explanation and an overview, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
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There are broadly two ways we have generally tried to explain the presence of swallowtail merlons on the Rosettes foldout:

1) Generic architecture: the artist wanted to draw a crenelated wall and a castle, and in his mind this was what they looked like. We have seen examples of this in various manuscripts: swallowtail merlons on an anonymous wall in a manuscript about siege weapons, or in a country where we know they historically did not occur. The artist just drew crenelations like this, and no additional meaning is intended. 

2) Specific architecture: this is what people think of when they look for possible candidates to identify the castle: the image is a "portrait" of a building that existed in the 15th century. Maybe the artist wanted to draw his city, or one he knew.

These are usually discussed in neutral terms, i.e. "this is what the building looks like". However, we also know that the so-called Ghibelline merlons were once a powerful political signal, and their appearance would have been far from neutral. Is it possible that some additional meaning was still meant in the 15th century? Since these merlons are some of the only connections we have between the VM and the real world, it might be worthwhile to investigate the possible extent of their meaning. I don't know much about this, so I'll start from the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:



"The Guelphs and Ghibellines were factions supporting the Pope and the Holy Roman Emperor, respectively, in the Italian city-states of central and northern Italy... During the 12th and 13th centuries, rivalry between these two parties formed a particularly important aspect of the internal politics of medieval Italy."

What remained of this division in the 15th century? There is not much on the wiki, but it is clear that the division was still somewhat relevant. For example as late as ca. 1447-1450 thier rivalry dominated politics in Milan. And ideological differences remained, where Ghibelline factions tended to support the Emperor, while the Guelphs supported the Pope and later also the French. 

However, by the very end of the 15th century, the division had become obsolete.

The swallowtail merlons look like an important bit of information tucked away in an obscure location. There is little question about their importance, the problem is with their interpretation. At the time of VMs C-14 dating, such structures would obviously be well-known to residents and to travelers through these regions of Italy. The significance is there, but the focus of specific detail is lacking. Potentially the artist was born in, passed through, or later lived in a town with Ghibelline fortifications.

Interesting that you mention Milan:
There is a Valois connection in that Isabelle (1348-1372), sister of Philip the Bold, was the wife of Gian Galeazzo Visconti.

There is a book in the KBR Library from the duke's collection: [b]Chronique de Milan jusqu'en 395 : [ms. 6263][/b]

In the recent set of armorial listings, it appears to be spelled 'meylan' - and there's the semi of fleur-de-lys quartered with the Visconti serpent.

I see it as generic archictecture, due to the use in the rosettes in various places. As i see this section as a portolan style map, some occur in places that would not have such crenellations, such as what i see as the walls of Jericho. However i think it tells us about the people who drew it, and where they might have been located geographically and might give us a glimpse of the political leanings of that place. 

The castle i see as more specific, ie the crenellations fit there, on the western border of mainland Italy, i think west of Milan, though, to represent a place closer to the current French border, as i think it is showing the way through the Alps, more like somewhere in Piedmont, or possibly Saluzzo. But it need not be a specific castle to make the connection.

I was looking for a way to show exactly what i mean in terms of the place i think it means to reference, ie the headwaters of the Po and the Durance rivers, and i came across this, which describes the entirety of the Po Valley. 

A prohemie, in which discryveth he,
Pemond, and of Saluces the contree,
And speketh of Appenyn, the hilles hye,
That been the boundes of West Lumbardye,
And of Mount Vesulus in special,
Wher as the Poo out of a welle smal,
Taketh his first spryngyng and his cours
That eastward ay encresseth in his cours
To Emele-ward, to Ferare and Venyse;
The which a long thyng were to devyse.

(Geoffrey Chaucer, "The Clerk's Tale," from The Canterbury Tales)

Dante and others also mention it.

Monte Viso (aka Vesulus) also had a tunnel built through it later in the 15th century presumably to make it easier to get to the other side, which tells me people were doing that already, before it was put in place in 1479 as a way to increase trade. This tunnel has been recently reopened. 

When i saw this picture, it reminded me of pointed crenellations and castles. They say it could be the inspiration for the Paramount mountain, and on a clear day it can be seen from Milan. You can almost see the raised edges of the causeway on the rosettes that leads to France.



Also, i came across the Peace of Constance of 1183, which required various cities of Italy (mostly the ones i have mentioned previously as being signified of f80v, which mainly covers the cisalpine region of Italy) to swear an oath of fealty to the Holy Roman Emperor. As i believe the olive branch on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. may refer to this event, this may be the timing of the politics we are talking about, or at least a reference thereto, since until now i was thinking the Council of Constance, which is more in keeping with the carbon dating. As the Ghibellines favour the Emperor, it makes sense for there to be Ghibelline merlons on the castle. 

Come to think of it, perhaps the walls of Jericho, or Jerusalem, also qualify, given that around that time Genoa and Venice were exerting their influences and in 1229 Jerusalem came into the hands of the Emperor, who began to rebuild the walls, but they were knocked back down again. It was a diverse setting, all religions were allowed, so again the Emperor over the Pope idea also fits, depending on the time period.

But there is so much back and forth between that time, other alliances, crusades and invasions occurred so that it is hard to say which exact regions were which politically and what time the information portrays. It could be copies of older documents, even much older than the timing discussed above, or a conglomeration of all of them, or only a single snippet of time more personal to the creators of the manuscript. 

But i do not think we are looking for artifacts, only ideas.

I think we have to be careful assuming that the person who drew these merlons (no, autocorrect, I don't mean melons) took them from his own surroundings. I can draw a mosque or a Greek temple or an igloo but that doesn't mean I live near any of those structures, nor that I have ever seen one in real life, nor that I have ever even visited the places where they occur.

That is one of the two questions I've been looking into, though without much success: since the architecture is typical for a certain region, may it also be used by outsiders to refer to that region? I think this is certainly possible, though perhaps not the most likely. I see no reason why the VM should have been produced outside of the region where these merlons may have been known from proximity. 

What I wonder most though, is whether these merlons still meant something more than an ornament in the 15th century itself.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that there are other swallowtail merlons elsewhere on the same nine-rosette page.

That's what I meant when I said "a crenelated wall and a castle

You are right to draw attention to this fact though, since it may be relevant. Though I guess it could be seen as an argument in favor of generic as well as specific use. What do you think?

What I think is that the position some people like to take that the swallowtail merlons are just arbitrary or meaningless is rather less tenable than they believe.

(03-09-2021, 10:05 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think we have to be careful assuming that the person who drew these merlons (no, autocorrect, I don't mean melons) took them from his own surroundings. I can draw a mosque or a Greek temple or an igloo but that doesn't mean I live near any of those structures, nor that I have ever seen one in real life, nor that I have ever even visited the places where they occur.

True but it would be someone who either saw one or a depiction of one. 

Quote:That is one of the two questions I've been looking into, though without much success: since the architecture is typical for a certain region, may it also be used by outsiders to refer to that region? I think this is certainly possible, though perhaps not the most likely. I see no reason why the VM should have been produced outside of the region where these merlons may have been known from proximity. 

As i believe it does stand for a region it is completely possible that it was made by someone not located there.

Quote:What I wonder most though, is whether these merlons still meant something more than an ornament in the 15th century itself.

The best example i found near the area i believe it to reference turned out to have its merlons added in the 19th century, although the castle was in existence in the region i discussed. 

If it was meant to refer to the Italian influence on Jerusalem also, (Nick, I mentioned this other wall too, earlier) then again it need only be someone aware of the Ghibbeline merlon trend. As far as i know there were none actually built that way in that region, so they wouldnt have seen it there, i guess either applied to give context re Emperors and Popes, or because that was all they knew to draw. Many that exist now are later though, even the Kremlin swallowtail walls were late 15th century (but still built by Italians).

The Scaliger Castle of Malcesine has had its merlons since the 14th century, added to a castle that existed since Roman times. I think it is also referenced on f80r, the nymph being poked in the eye, although i believe the Roman ruins are what is being referenced (her broken legs) rather than the merlons. Sirmione i believe is also referenced (by the sulphur spring tube),  and also has swallowtail merlons but of different design, and others have different designs again, while still maintaining the general swallowtail motif. So it is hard to say how much Ghibelline design importance was denoted at the time they were built, or thought of in the time of the vms carbon dating, given these differences. Also some cities went back and forth over time as to where their allegiances lay, not like you could change your castle every time that happened, so i am guessing that affected the relevance too.

I just noticed this by chance.

For Grasset d'Orcet "France is naturally Guelph, but art has been and always will be Ghibelline."

« la France est naturellement guelfe mais l’art, lui, a été et sera toujours gibelin. »
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(04-09-2021, 05:34 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I think is that the position some people like to take that the swallowtail merlons are just arbitrary or meaningless is rather less tenable than they believe.

Did anybody ever wonder if the swallow tail  merlons have anything to do with the ancient Celtic tribe of Latobici, located in Roman times in the present day Lower Carniola (Dolenjska region of Slovenia). LASTOVICA in Slovenian means SWALLOW. 

Or perhaps some Carthusian monk was thinking of Mary and doodled a whole row of M-letters on what looks like a retaining wall.