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Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

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• Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

• Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

  MichelleL11 > 27-02-2022, 02:58 AM

  I wanted to come back and share my results in attempting to connect the numerous round, blue circles of the middle right rosette with a representation of hail.
     
  I admit to preferring to look at the image with the script "rightway up" -- and that could be wrong.  Please note that such preferences can be represented as intrinsic evidence, that is -- evidence that comes from within the manuscript itself.  I do find intrinsic evidence to have more weight than extrinsic evidence, so that is why I am presenting the rosette in this format.
  
  However, in the rest of these arguments, I am relying on extrinsic evidence, that is to say other representations outside the VM of as similar as possible imagery.  In my opinion, we don't have another example in the manuscript of this precise kind of circular images.  And let's be realistic, even if this exact kind of thing was used multiple times within the manuscript, it's all speculation.
  
  I began my extrinsic evidence search, as suggested by Koen, with a look through representative Apocalypse illustrations.  Many did not represent the hail of Revelation 16:17-21 at all, or if they did represent hail, it was much more like enlarged raindrops than hail, necessarily.  Here are three examples of ones showing this kind of shape that I found:
  
     
  The Apocalypse of 1313, BNF, Paris, Fr. 13096, f.54r
  
     
  Dublin Apocalypse, f.25r; IE TCD MS64
  
     
  Abingdon Apocalypse, Add MS 42555, 3rd quarter of 13th century, French, f.61v
  
  In searching for representations of hail in medieval manuscripts, it also became obvious that limiting to this precise part of the Bible (e.g. the pouring of the seventh vial) didn't necessarily make sense.  Here is a representation of hail illustrating another part of Revelation (although combination illustrations are very common, so this might be Rev 16:21 in part) and is closer to what is in the VM in shape, if those blue circles are hail.
  
     
  The Cloisters Apocalypse, ca. 1330, Normandy, FR, Cloisters, NYC, 68.174, f.20r
  
  
  The one example I found of explicitly Rev 16:21 and showing regular circular hail is below:
  
     
  
  Apocalypse between 1255 and 1360, England and France, London MS M.524 fol. 16r
  
  I could likely find more (as well as more not fitting this scenario) but at this point I had spent the time I had.  These last two examples, using very regular circles, do lend some decent support to at least some tradition of using the same exact shape for hail -- so I don't see this possibility as eliminated and I do see it as at least partially supported.
  
  
  The other issue to be examined is the blue color as the two "regular circle" examples I have show the hail as uncolored -- e.g., just outlines showing through the background color in their centers. 
  
  On this question, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has published explicit academic work on the use of color in the Beatus commentary.  This work is limited to the Beatus tradition, a particular commentary on the Apocalypse with origins in Spain.  If you followed this other You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you can learn more about Beatus.  This is what she had to say about the color of  hail in the 27 copies of this type of Apocalypse representations, and the footnote cites specific examples of the colors that she recorded:
  
         
  
  
  But it's not only in the Beatus commentary that hail is often white.  Although this is not illustrating Revelation -- here is some white hail illustrating the plague of hail in Exodus 9:19
  
     
  Weltchronik, Germany, Regensburg, ca. 1360, MS M.769 f. 81v.
  
  Importantly, it wasn't until I extended my search outside of explicit Apocalypse manuscripts into those medieval illustrations that are merely "influenced" by Revelation that I started to see a larger number of consistently parallel illustrations.
  
  The greatest amount of discussion of circular hail I found was by those interested in Tarot card history.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is an example posting that discusses this type of imagery at relative length.  A Tarot researcher in this string represented circular hail as a long standing and extremely well known visual tradition from multiple countries -- and the general fact that it comes up in Tarot cards, known for using established, wide-spread imagery that is selected for immediate and emotional impact, supports this.
  
  I know that Marco has delved into Tarot cards as including possible VM related imagery and I see circular hail as another example of this --- not sure if hail came up in his studies. 
  
  In this case it is the Tower card that commonly illustrates hail, particularly in the earliest cards.  This image provides a composite image of a number of the earliest known Tower cards that often feature various colored circular hail.
  
     
  
  Granted, even the earliest of these cards is well after the carbon dating.  Left most Tower card is only partial and from the "Cary Sheet"
   -- this is part of a sheet of uncut set of cards housed in the Cary collection at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and is considered ca. 1500.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a short article about the sheet that doesn't really delve into the Tower card but is a useful introduction.  The poster in the linked string even asserted that a tradition of such shapes may be well known in the German woodcut early printed books, which I found interesting, but that research will be for another day.
  
  Conclusion:  So, in my opinion, the strongest and most consistent evidence for the use of regular round circle outlines, possibly blue colored or some other color than white, to represent hail appears most clearly in the image history of Tarot cards, specifically the Tower card, which is thought to be highly influenced by Apocalypse based imagery.  In timing, this is well after the VM carbon date.  However, stereotypic imagery, such as that used in Tarot cards, had to come from somewhere, so I do think it is a good bet that round circles would evoke hail in a medieval viewer.  And the VM round circles seem to be filling up the "earthly plain" (e.g., not in the heavens which is bounded by the nebuly line) also supporting the possibility this is an "earthly" issue such as enormous hail would be.  But it remains that this representation is far from universal and is, admittedly, just a possibility (as with everything in the VM).  However, I did come away from this work with the feeling that it is a distinct, supported possibility and did enjoy learning more about early Tarot cards.  Thanks for reading!

• RE: Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

  davidjackson > 27-02-2022, 06:05 PM

  Very interesting reading, thank you MichelleL11.

• RE: Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

  CaryR > 27-02-2022, 09:41 PM

  Very interesting examples, Michelle. I think it's important to look at extrinsic evidence as you're doing, finding other examples of similar imagery contemporary with the VM, and then considering whether a similar meaning might make sense in the VM. I think the images you show certainly support a good possibility that the circles could be hailstones, which could imply a reference to Revelation.
  
  To your point that the round circles seem to be outside the nebuly line and therefore might relate to the "earthly" plane, I found an interesting passage in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that might support this interpretation:
  
  

  Quote:"The Lord comes in a storm, throwing stones at his enemies (16:21), but hailstones also indicate that the firmament is shattering as the Lord brings his heavenly throne to earth ... Heaven and earth are no longer separated. The opening of the sanctuary... is completed. God stands face-to-face with his world, and there is no place to hide." (161)

  
  Like I said before, even though Koen and I have been looking at certain aspects of Revelation imagery, we want to remain careful to avoid becoming biased towards interpreting all related VM imagery in this expected frame. You asked in another thread if we had found circles used representatively in this way elsewhere, and so I want to point to an alternative (but potentially related) possibility. The illustration of manna, the miraculous bread-like substance that fell from heaven as described in the book of Exodus, is depicted very similarly to--and in some cases is practically indistinguishable from--your examples of hailstones. Often the circles are white, though in one example I found it appears they can be blue and white, perhaps to emphasize that they are coming from the sky:
     
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Since we may write more about this soon, I won't elaborate too much on our speculations here, but there is one point I want to mention here in connection with your hailstone examples. I was just thinking about how these two different "raining substances" are so similar in appearance, yet so opposite in their meaning. When large circles falling from the sky are hailstones, it means destruction and God's wrath, but when they are manna, it means sustenance, salvation, and God's favor. And without the inclusion of people in an illustration to show whether the falling circles are the kind that mean "duck for cover" or "thankfully collect food", it's hard to tell whether a negative or positive meaning could be intended. In comparing these two possibilities, it's also worth noting that hailstones are mentioned in both Revelation and Exodus, and likewise, manna is mentioned in both too.
  
  They are opposite, but perhaps related, and I wanted to mention this because in the same book passage I quoted above, there was a very interesting description of the hailstones of Revelation as "anti-manna":
  
  

  Quote:During Israel's wilderness wandering, bread fell from heaven as manna. The Lord sustained his people with "circles" from the firmament. With the seventh bowl, this is reversed. Instead of raining life-giving bread, he rains down circles of hail, which crush the people beneath... The people of the city are no longer Israel, whatever they may call themselves, and so do not eat the heavenly bread. They refused the true manna, Jesus, and so an anti-manna crushes them. They are remembered before God, and are given anti-bread along with the wine of God's wrath.

  
  I wonder if this could explain why the illustrations of these two things tend to look so similar... the hailstones looking like manna is almost like a cruel joke from God.

• RE: Possibility of Hail in the Middle Right Rosette

  Linda > 27-02-2022, 09:45 PM

  I believe the hail is a good possibility of what was meant to be portrayed.
  
  I think of this rosette as showing not sky, but water. The detail with the three lines motif speaks to me of volcanic activity, seismic faults. There is often hail associated with volcanic eruptions. 
  
  
  
  The "fish tails" can be seen as tidal waves resulting from an island eruption, stopped in time just after the eruption triggers them, a parting of the seas. The central motif seems floral or decorative, but can be seen to resemble this island:
  
  
  The second is a drawing of how they figure it looked at the time of the Minoan eruption.
  
  As such it could be the story of Thera, Santorini, Atlantis...Venice had suzerainty in the 14th century. The stories are included in various classical writings. The Chinese recorded it. Tree rings in California show when it happened. It was a big deal. 
  
  Thus the hail-ash combo covered any land in the vicinity. 100 cubic kilometres of tephra. As the vms seems interested in various forms of rock and the formation thereof over time, (turn the rosettes over to see examples) this subject would certainly seem to be of interest.
  
  
  
  In terms of apocalypse, i think this fits as an example of the type of thing that is predicted to befall at end times. They also say that the Biblical plagues in Egypt were possibly triggered by this event in reality also. So to me this not only shows a location but its geologic history, and evokes social history from this point forward, hence the mythological and biblical ideas denoted by the cloud bands, which could double as the ash cloud from whence the hail came, which brings us back to apocalypse, but in a very real way. It also resembles depictions of Judgement Day overall in other manuscripts such as the Holkham Bible of 1330 andmay therefore be meant to invoke same.
  
  
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