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Costmary (f46v): Challenge

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Costmary (f46v): Challenge
Costmary (f46v): Challenge

R. Sale > 15-08-2022, 05:57 PM

I would like to collect early information (pre-1500) on this plant (Tanacetum balsamita) as a possible identification of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustration.

This old identification, along with recent discussion about the roots as the wings of Saint Michael, in combination with a French name for this plant, Herbe Sainte-Marie, make for an interesting, combined interpretation. If the roots represent Saint Michael, in his role as the Christian conductor of souls, and the herb represents the Virgin Mary, then this is a subtle reference to the Assumption of the Virgin.

Are there early herbal monographs for this plant that have written text?

This one just has names. "Erba di S. Marie"

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RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

bi3mw > 15-08-2022, 07:03 PM

This plant is already known ( at least ) since the 9th century under the name "costus".
It is listed among others here ( I have not found the right folio yet ):

Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Pal. lat. 1519
Composite manuscript
Lorsch, arround 1000
85va-88vb Walahfridus Strabo, De cultura hortorum sive Hortulus ( end is missing )
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edit:
I have found a German translation of the passage in "De cultura hortorum". Chrysanthemum balsamita and Tanacetum balsamita are the same plant.

Quote:SCLAREGA , Muskatellersalbei salvia sclarea mit Costus, Frauenminze (Chrysanthemum balsamita)

Hier unter jungem Grünzeug erhebt sich mit kräftigem Stengel
Dunkel Sclarega, nach oben verbreitet sie Zweige und Blätter.
Da sie nur selten zur Hilfe in Krankheit irgend verlangt wird,
Möchte man glauben, sie sei wohl den Händen der Ärzte entgangen.
Gleichwohl vermag sie zu spenden, in süßligwarmes Wasser gegeben,
Heilende Kräfte sowohl wie Tränke von duftender Würze.
Dicht bei ihr verbirgt sich ein Wäldchen, und nicht als das letzte,
Costus des Gartens. Kocht man die Wurzel, mit heilsamer Hilfe
Fördert sie träge Verdauung und regelt glücklich den Stuhlgang.

English translation ( as good as possible ) :
SCLAREGA , clary sage salvia sclarea with costus, lady's mint (Chrysanthemum balsamita).

Here among young greenery Dark Sclarea rises with strong stem, upwards it spreads branches and leaves. Since it is seldom called upon to help in illness, one would think it had escaped the hands of doctors. Nevertheless, it is able to give, given in sweet warm water, healing powers as well as potions of fragrant spice. Close to it hides a grove, and not as the last, costus of the garden. If you boil the root, with healing help it promotes sluggish digestion and happily regulates defecation.
RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

Juan_Sali > 15-08-2022, 07:16 PM

Tanacetum balsamita has many common names. In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. it is known as well as herb of Saint Peter and herb of the Bible (I dont when the use of this names started).
Saint Peter was given the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. So the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. can be interpreted too without a reference to the Virgin.
RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

nablator > 15-08-2022, 08:32 PM

14th century Opus ruralium commodorum by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has a chapter about mint.
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Latin (original):
BNF Latin 9328 (page unknown) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

14th century Middle French translation, for example this printed edition dated 1486, easier to read than manuscripts:
BNF RES-S-285 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Livre VI, chap. 79. De mente.
Mente est chaulde et seche ou
second degre, et en est de trois
manieres l'une est franche et pro-
prement de jardin et ceste conforte et
eschaufe moyennement. Et si est u-
ne mente qui est sauvage que l’en
appelle mentastre la quelle eschau-
fe plus. Et si en est une aultre qui
a plus longues plus larges et plus
agues fueilles, et est ceste appellee
mente rommaine ou sarrazine, et l'ap-
pelle l’en communement l’erbe sainte
marie. Et est ceste plus diuretique
que les aultres.
...

It starts with the typically medieval description of "hot and dry in the 2d degree", the hot/cold dry/wet standard formula that we don't see in the VM, then, specifically about costmary: "And if it is another that has longer and larger and sharper leaves, this one is called Roman or Sarrazin mint or commonly the Saint-Mary herb. And this one is more diuretic than the others."
RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

R. Sale > 15-08-2022, 09:51 PM

Indeed, there is an expanding list of names for this plant. Half a dozen in German as well. Different names reveal different details, some of which are contradictory.

One source suggests that the old Latin name, costus amarus, got mumbled over sufficiently to be become 'cost-mary'. So, there is no reference to 'Mary', just a misunderstood pronunciation.

There are also a variety of alternate 'scientific' names such as chrysanthemum balsamita. One source said that this was the balsam with which Mary Magdalene washed Jesus' feet. Other sources connect only to the Virgin Mary, so there is a clear conflict in the sources. Not sure how this matters too much, since both are depicted rising to heaven. The artist's historical view would be determinative, so probable not Mary Magdalene.

This is not a single-factor, plant identification as I see it, but a three-factor, combined interpretation.
1) Scientific ID, 2) common name, & 3) root interpretation

The combination that works:
1) Tanacetum balsamita; 2) Herbe Sainte-Marie (& others); 3) Wings of Saint Michael > evoking a subtle reference to the Assumption

Perhaps this three-way identification will support a text connection.

Thanks.

PS: Roman mint or sarrazine
RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

Ruby Novacna > 16-08-2022, 11:41 AM

(15-08-2022, 05:57 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to collect early information (pre-1500) on this plant (Tanacetum balsamita) as a possible identification of the f46v illustration.
This is a very good idea if it would identify the name of the plant in the text.

(15-08-2022, 07:16 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tanacetum balsamita has many common names
It would probably be necessary to list all possible names to identify the corresponding word in the text.
RE: Costmary (f46v): Challenge

R. Sale > 16-08-2022, 05:32 PM

It's hard to see how that would work at this stage of the investigation. Which common name, which VMs vord?

The intent is to just collect information to decide about the plant identification, first of all. Is there a consensus to call this a "certain" or confirmed plant ID?

It would be great if the VMs text turned out to be a copy of text from a known, historical herbal, and that text could be used as a sort of Rosetta Stone to help read the VMs. Previous attempts with other plant ID's have not succeeded. But at least it seems worthwhile to see whether historical herbal monographs for this plant are available.

The other thing, though, is the odd historical details that show up when there is an active lead to follow. One of the common names for this plant was maudlin, which is said to be a corruption of Magdalene. Back to the question of which Mary was it?

Apparently, the same plant, under the name Chrysanthemum balsamita, was in the original formulation of Carmelite water, produced by nuns at the Abby of St. Just in Padua starting in 1379. The 'original' bottled water. Otherwise listed as balneum mariae, it's hard to say, when the plant name keeps changing, whether it's still the same plant. And again, which Mary?

I still think the three factors involved all support the proposed "costmary" interpretation.
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