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Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

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• Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

• Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  folaht > 14-09-2023, 09:05 AM

  There's already You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on this topic, 
  but I think it would be nice to compare all plants of all similar manuscripts to
  that of the VMS and each other. 
  
  Perhaps this is a good way to ID plants, 
  because all of these flowers of all of these manuscripts are terribly drawn,  
  so perhaps by comparing the manuscripts, we might be able to find
  some patterns in the madness.  
  
  I've so far only found one comparison that I'm willing to make.
  
  
  ## List of Manuscripts
  
  ### Cambridge Trinity College MS O.2.48 -- date: 1200-1400, language ..., origin: likely Southern Italy
  
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  ### Voynich Manuscript - ca. 1420 -- language ???, origin Italy?
  
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  ### University of Vermont MS 2 -- date: ca. 1475, language: Italian, origin: Tuscany
  
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  ### ??
  
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  ## Comparison of plants
  
  ### You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - White affodil (instead of Edith Sherwood's starflower)
  
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  #### Argument for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - White affodil
  
  My argument of this being the white affodil is that I was simply looking 
  for a plant that had big leaves shaped into a star. 
  They both have a white flower in the middle of the star leaves, 
  but in the Vermont Manuscript they're tiny, 
  so the Voynich Manuscript image would then actually be 
  the better drawing of the two.
  
  The UoV MS flower description clearly reads "Astula reggia" and by
  websearching you can find "Asphodelus Albus"  
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• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Juan_Sali > 18-11-2023, 03:22 PM

  I will try a different approach, I will compare drawings of the same plant in different manuscripts with a single VMS plant. I will propose the best match in my opinion. 
  I will start with as easy one, there is only one possible match as there arent more plants with a similar drawing.  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. 
     
  Images fronm left to right:
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  VMS
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• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Aga Tentakulus > 20-11-2023, 04:57 AM

  Regarding your examples from other books, 3 possibilities could apply.
  f5r, f42v, f15v.
  Since all examples are classical, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the most likely.
  
  In your opinion, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. This corresponds more closely to Bingelkraut. (classic) and seven-pointed star (also witch's weed) to f42v.

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Koen G > 20-11-2023, 09:45 AM

  Ethel Voynich had this same problem a century ago. Her entry for f5r:
  
  

  Quote:5r
  
  (Compare [[f15v]])
  Something liliaceous? Possibly the Paris; but the drawing suggests a whorl of 9 leaves. Look in MS. If the divisions are midribs, it is probably the Paris.
  Later. Have examined MS. It is a whorl of 4 leaves, the colours alternating (dark and light green of upper and under surfaces). There is a suggestion of a fifth leaf; this occasionally occurs. I believe this is the Paris. But also, See Plate 16 left [[f15v]].
  See notes + Env. 2 [[Envelope 2 - see footnote 1]]
  
  Strange as this seems, it may be meant for Lilium Martagon. In any case it is the lily family without a doubt.
  (I believe 16 left [[f15v]] to be Lilium  Martagon. They are related = Liliacae.)
  Colouring: light green; calyx green; berry black with white (for bloom?).

  
  
  And for f15v:
  
  

  Quote:15v.
  
  Certainly liliaceous of some kind. The lower part can scarcely be anything else than [[added:either a lily or]] the Paris; but from the top of the stem upwards it is quite impossible for the Paris. The top might easily be the fructification of Botrychium Lunaria, which was associated with the Paris (witchcraft and antidote) [[added:see Gerarde]]; but the capsule even in that case is impossible. The round berry of the Paris (see Plate 5) is sessile on the bracts persistent segments.
  Though the Paris and Botrychium belong to different sub-kingdoms, Gerard puts them together. The Paris (Herba Amoris) was used against poisons and witchcraft. The Botrychium was used by witches etc…
  The root looks liliaceous, much resembling that of the American relative of the Paris: Medola (Indian Cucumber).
  August ‘33. I think the explanation is that it is meant for Lilium Martagon, in fruit. The capsule is fairly good for that, and the brown things coming out would be the seeds emerging from the ripe capsule(?). The root of Lilium Martagon should be more definitely a bulb, but the Liliaceae are very variable in their roots. The Day Lily (Hemerocallis) and Asphodel have roots with several small, irregular semi-bulbs, clustered among the fibrous roots, and this may be one of them, but, in spite of that, I believe the plant intended is Lilium Martagon.

  
  In my opinion, the problem is this: for f5r, the upper part "berry on a stick" looks immediately familiar to anyone who knows the Paris herb. But the leaves don't represent the Paris' typical 4-leaf whorl. Still, this can be interpreted a bit like Ethel does, that we are actually looking at 4 or 5 leaves with differently colored halves.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has the four leaves, but there is no way we can make the upper part work for the Paris. Moreover, the leaves have these elongated tips, which are not found in nature nor in herbal traditions.
  
  All in all, if any VM plant must be the Paris, I agree with Peter that it is probably You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . Although I'm afraid an entirely different paradigm will be needed.

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  nablator > 20-11-2023, 10:20 AM

  (20-11-2023, 09:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Although I'm afraid an entirely different paradigm will be needed.

  
  Maybe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was originally facing You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the flower acted as a graphical catchword to link the two pages.

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Koen G > 20-11-2023, 11:55 AM

  (20-11-2023, 10:20 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was originally facing You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the flower acted as a graphical catchword to link the two pages.

  
  There is definitely some affinity between these two plants. In their overall build, and in both cases the roots are fourfold, with pointy knobs at the end.

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Juan_Sali > 20-11-2023, 02:52 PM

  (20-11-2023, 09:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. has the four leaves, but there is no way we can make the upper part work for the Paris. Moreover, the leaves have these elongated tips, which are not found in nature nor in herbal traditions.

  The leaves with elongated tips may be an embelishment proper of the VMS, other images with elongated tips may be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f9r You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f24r You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f54v.
  I cant say if there are real plants with this kind of leaves.
  An You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. closer to the f15v 
     

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Aga Tentakulus > 21-11-2023, 03:55 PM

     
  
  You may also have to consider the maturity of the plant.
  For example, the seven-pointed star can also have a berry.
  The root could be used to twist the classification
  
  The classic single berry can also have several leaves.
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• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Koen G > 21-11-2023, 04:40 PM

  If we take odds into consideration though, those of Lysimachia europaea ("Siebenstern" in German) are pretty low. It is a northern European plant and, according to the wiki, rarely produces fruit. Do you know of any other plant that produces a single blue/dark fruit on a stalk above a whorl of leaves? We seem to have at least three VM plants that match this structure.

• RE: Comparison of the structure of plants in the VMS and other medieval Manuscripts.

  Aga Tentakulus > 21-11-2023, 07:00 PM

  I only know 2 in this way.
  On the subject of the growth area. For example, it grows in Bellinzona, but not necessarily in Milan. South Tyrol but little in Veneto.
  I have stuck to the Swiss flora as it covers all climatic zones. Southern Germany, parts of France, northern Italy and Austria.
  "Distribution and habitat
  Most of Europe, with the exception of Portugal, Hungary, Spain, Ireland, Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria and the former Yugoslavia. It inhabits coniferous forests, moors and heathlands."
  
     
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