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Ratzenschwantz
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RE: Ratzenschwantz
-JKP- > 04-04-2016, 11:25 AM
Sorry, I meant Cyperus (the sedge plant).
I'm always trying to do five things at once (I have three monitors and usually 6 apps running, and 25 tabs open in the browser at any given time). The forum is very hit-and-run for me as I'm working long hours. I should read my posts and check them before posting, but I don't because there's always something more urgent that needs to be done for a deadline.
So my bad. Cypress I typed, Cyperus I meant (probably Cyperus melanorhizus, C. longus or C. rotundus which have rounded root tubers, hence the name nut-sedge). -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
ReneZ > 04-04-2016, 11:57 AM
The Morgan Dioscurides has two herbs called horsetail, on fol.s 65r and 65v. The Greek names are hippouris and hippouris hetera respectively.
The second one has a passing resemblance to the herb discussed in this thread. The root is completely nondescript, however.
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The latter also found its way into the 'Herbis Femininis' as 'hipperis'. -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
MarcoP > 04-04-2016, 12:17 PM
(04-04-2016, 11:57 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Morgan Dioscurides has two herbs called horsetail, on fol.s 65r and 65v. The Greek names are hippouris and hippouris hetera respectively.
The second one has a passing resemblance to the herb discussed in this thread. The root is completely nondescript, however.
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The latter also found its way into the 'Herbis Femininis' as 'hipperis'.
Now I wonder if Cadamosto's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was the result of mixing two different plants, getting the plant shape from "hipperis" and the roots from "cyperus"?
I think it's very interesting that Ellie's observation has led us to a plant (cyperus) which actually has nodules in the roots! -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
Anton > 04-04-2016, 12:48 PM
What I infer from this thread is that medieval manuscripts presented plants in a complete mess. Which is not that good from the perspective of the analysis of the VMS. -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
ReneZ > 04-04-2016, 01:32 PM
I suppose in a way it's "good". If the Voynich MS seems to be in a bit of a mess, at least we know this is perfectly normal.
It reinforces the idea that trying to identify the herbs from the illustrations is largely hopeless, even while some appear quite reasonable. -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
EllieV > 04-04-2016, 02:15 PM
[quote pid='2930' dateline='1459768662']
I think it's very interesting that Ellie's observation has led us to a plant (cyperus) which actually has nodules in the roots!
[/quote]
Another common feature between cat's tail, cyperus and pasque flower is that all of them have whip-like foliage. The roots appear similar, because they are all drawn with 4 tentacles with nodules on it - similar to popular depictions of roman flagrum (belts with metal balls and bone-pieces on them).
However, interpreting the roots that way is a wild speculation. If I have to make a safe bet - I would go with root nodules.
(04-04-2016, 12:48 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I infer from this thread is that medieval manuscripts presented plants in a complete mess. Which is not that good from the perspective of the analysis of the VMS.
I agree. Finding order in this chaos is a very challenging task. -
RE: Ratzenschwantz
MarcoP > 04-04-2016, 05:37 PM
(04-04-2016, 11:25 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sorry, I meant Cyperus (the sedge plant).
I'm always trying to do five things at once (I have three monitors and usually 6 apps running, and 25 tabs open in the browser at any given time). The forum is very hit-and-run for me as I'm working long hours. I should read my posts and check them before posting, but I don't because there's always something more urgent that needs to be done for a deadline.
So my bad. Cypress I typed, Cyperus I meant (probably Cyperus melanorhizus, C. longus or C. rotundus which have rounded root tubers, hence the name nut-sedge).
Sorry, I did not notice that Ellie wrote cyperus and so you obviously meant cyperus too.
(04-04-2016, 12:48 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I infer from this thread is that medieval manuscripts presented plants in a complete mess. Which is not that good from the perspective of the analysis of the VMS.
Of course it's an extremely complex subject. A few users here (Rene, JKP, Ellie and possibly others) have clearly seen numberless images and they have provided a lot of useful information. The only way to make progress with this is the study of ancient herbals in general and from the XIV and XV century in particular. The fact that it is "a complete mess" is what makes the subject attractive
In You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. wrote that it contains drawings of well identifiable botanic species documented in many manuscripts ("disegni di specie botaniche ben indentificabili e attestate da molteplici manoscitti"). Of course, for hobbyists like us, approaching this huge and complex visual tradition is extremely difficult, but I am sure it is well worth the effort.