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How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
- How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
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How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
ReneZ > 13-04-2016, 04:04 PM
How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
This is a very qualitative question, not one that can be answered on a scale from 1 to 10.
In the older literature one reads that the illustrations have no historic parallels, but is that
really true?
One way to get a feeling for this is by looking for other examples of possibly 'unusual' or even
'outlandish' illustrations in other MSs.
I would invite people to look for, and show examples here.
People who have seen images from the Ripley scroll(s), the Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit or
the Bellifortis probably already have a good idea what this could look like, but there is much, much
more. Ellie's blog already has quite a number of nice examples.
Let me just start with a MS with some interesting cosmological diagrams:
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RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
Anton > 13-04-2016, 04:23 PM
I don't think it is methodologically correct to seek historic parallels for the VMS imagery in imagery only. The VMS imagery - at least in part - may be the author's own graphical interpretation of textual sources.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is, in my opinion, a good example - albeit, of course, provisional. -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
MarcoP > 13-04-2016, 05:29 PM
(13-04-2016, 04:04 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Let me just start with a MS with some interesting cosmological diagrams:
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Thank you, Rene! That's a great manuscript!
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The single illustration in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (England or Germany? 1400 ca) also is quite outlandish in my opinion. -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
davidjackson > 13-04-2016, 06:50 PM
I suspect part of the problem is that in the late medieval / early Renaissance transition period we tend to see two artistic trends that aren't recognised as such.
We see the trained scribal tradition, which tend to be the main bulk of the works that have arrived down the centuries to us. Within this, our scholars of the last century have happily sub-divided manuscripts into different trends, tracing the work from master to pupil over the years.
And on the other hand we have the "esoteric" manuscripts, which are simply authors who are literate but have no official training from the scribal houses. And these are the scribblers who develop imagery according to their own whims, who have never been taught how to do things properly. But most importantly, the above-mentioned 20th century scholars may have not paid as much attention to these as they should have.
An excellent example of this is CLM 849, a 15th century necromancy manual on paper in the Bavarian State Library. Kieckefer has analysed it in an excellent book called Forbidden Rites. It is full of magic circles that remind one of the Voynich's nymph circles in their design and information content - but attempting to fit this into the 15th century imagery hierarchy that we moderns have developed is futile.
But - this remains a literary tradition. Did the unknown author develop this type of circle himself? Of course not. He's copying older sources we don't have (but can guess at from other manuscripts that contain similar material) and in certain places appears to be developing the imagery based on his written sources. And it's the basis of Renaissance magic.
There used to be an idea that in the Middle Ages "there was no such thing as an individual" (Prof Mary Carruthers quotes this). I think that's a 20th century idea that doesn't bear up upon examination. It should read: Most of what has been passed down to us is so structured that no individualism stands out.
The Voynich is simply the strongest refutation of this idea. Other outliers such as CLM 849 just support the notion. -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
Koen G > 13-04-2016, 06:58 PM
Interesting example, Rene. It surely does a good job of demystifying the Voynich, which is a good thing.
On the other hand, at face value, I think the VM imagery still offers fewer points of recognition for the modern viewer. For example, the other MS has a relatively standard zodiac, while... well, let's not go there.
But what it does really well is illustrate that such imagery can be seen as a real culture product, rather than some random collection of weird drawings. -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
ReneZ > 13-04-2016, 07:29 PM
(13-04-2016, 04:23 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think it is methodologically correct to seek historic parallels for the VMS imagery in imagery only. The VMS imagery - at least in part - may be the author's own graphical interpretation of textual sources.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is, in my opinion, a good example - albeit, of course, provisional.
Anton, I don't disagree with that. This thread is more intended to perhaps reduce some of the myths surrounding the MS illustrations, whose 'unusual nature' are not rarely exaggerated.
I don't know if anyone has read Barlow's 1986 Cryptologia paper, which starts off with a fine example of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. :
Quote:The botanists say the botany is nonsense.
The astronomers say the astronomy is nonsense.
The astrologers say the astrology is nonsense.
... [five more lines deleted]
This sort of talk (though not primarily from Barlow) has surely contributed to a baised understanding of the MS.
In addition, I am hoping that this thread may bring up some really nice examples of unexpected contents in medieval MSS. -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
Anton > 13-04-2016, 07:57 PM
Quote:Anton, I don't disagree with that. This thread is more intended to perhaps reduce some of the myths surrounding the MS illustrations, whose 'unusual nature' are not rarely exaggerated.
No, I did not mean to say that this thread is useless or something
What I mean is that the perceived "outlandishness" of the VMS drawings results largely from failure to find exact imagery matches - while the truth may be not that those matches are still undiscovered, but that there are none, which may be quite normal.
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RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
R. Sale > 13-04-2016, 08:32 PM
I'd like to borrow a little davidjackson quote, and then disagree.
"And on the other hand we have the "esoteric" manuscripts, which are simply authors who are literate but have no official training from the scribal houses. And these are the scribblers who develop imagery according to their own whims, who have never been taught how to do things properly."
They may know how to do things properly, but they may communicate them in an idiosyncratic manner. They may understand heraldry but use it in an unexpected language. They may construct an illustrated pun, but without papelonny, you will miss it. To me, this demonstrates the author's mastery of elements and the ability to do a sort of slight-of-hand trick that can not be seen. The information has been placed in the illustration. The failure is in the interpretation of subtle details presented.
Not only are the illustrations difficult to interpret because information (like papelonny and gurges and the nebuly line) has been lost to obscurity, they are also made difficult by obfuscation. Some of it was intentional; some was historical. The repeated confirmational factors presented are based on objective placement and the traditional standards of church hierarchy and heraldry. It is the tradition of the red galero that originated with a Fieschi pope. And it is indeed disguised. It opens a hidden pathway. It remains a current tradition. How outlandish does it get?? -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
VViews > 13-04-2016, 08:50 PM
Heh, I know its too late, but just because tomorrow will be this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.'s 455th anniversary...
And if that's not outlandish, I don't know what is...
![[Image: Nuremberg1561.jpg]](http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/pictures/Nuremberg1561.jpg)
Woodcut by Hanns Glaser, describing the celestial phenomenon that occurred over Nuremberg on the 14th of April 1561
Zentralbibliothek Zürich -
RE: How outlandish is the Voynich MS imagery?
EllieV > 13-04-2016, 09:11 PM
(13-04-2016, 04:04 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would invite people to look for, and show examples here.
Manuscript X 188 in the National Library of Sweden is 5 meters long and dates to around 1425–35 ;contains two works by John Arderne (active 1307–70), an abridged version of De arte phisicali et de cirurgia (Of the physical arts and surgery) and Fistula in ano. Also included is a tract on obstetrics by another author, Muscio. I hope the link works.
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BNF Francais 2028 - medical manuscript cc1480
some "fine" artwork
I have total respect for everybody who can read the handwriting of Joanna of Aragon, queen of Naples 1477