- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Medieval page references
- Medieval page references
-
Medieval page references
lelle > 27-04-2016, 11:12 AM
Nick Pelling argues both in his blog (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and in his book (the curse of the Voynich) that the aiir/aiiv -groups in the vms might be "fake" medieval page references. I have never encountered any page references looking anything like the aiir/aiiv groups in any medieval texts. How did one provide page references in the 15:th century? Does anyone have examples to share of page references looking anything like these groups?
Thanks!
[url=http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2011/02/16/why-the-voynich-manuscript-is-a-ciphertext][/url] -
RE: Medieval page references
Helmut Winkler > 27-04-2016, 02:40 PM
(27-04-2016, 11:12 AM)lelle Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nick Pelling argues both in his blog (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and in his book (the curse of the Voynich) that the aiir/aiiv -groups in the vms might be "fake" medieval page references. I have never encountered any page references looking anything like the aiir/aiiv groups in any medieval texts. How did one provide page references in the 15:th century? Does anyone have examples to share of page references looking anything like these groups?
Thanks!
[url=http://www.ciphermysteries.com/2011/02/16/why-the-voynich-manuscript-is-a-ciphertext][/url]
Medieval writers did not quote by page, how should they have done this when every transcription or copy had different page numbers if it had page numbers at all? If they did not just say e.g. Aristotle in de caelo, they gave book and chapter e.g. lib. vii, chap. 12, a custom which was common at least into the 17th c. They had page numbers and even numbering of columns, but not for references as we do them, they only had a reference for themselfes. You will not find references the NP way and I don't think he was able to give an example, but he is one of the great medievalists of our times, of course ... -
RE: Medieval page references
MarcoP > 27-04-2016, 03:30 PM
I am not an expert, but I agree with what Helmut wrote. I guess that most obvious place in which to expect references is an index.
This Pseudo-Apuleius herbal (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 1175 ca) has an index and plants are referenced by number (i.e. by chapter). Next to each plant, on the margin, there is a roman number in red, corresponding to the number in red in the index. The index also includes a list sub-sections (different therapeutic uses) for each plant (these numbers are in black).
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a 1475 ca copy of Cadamosto's herbal) also has an index. In this case, locations are referenced by folio number (with no indication of "recto" and "verso"). -
RE: Medieval page references
nickpelling > 28-04-2016, 11:08 AM
(27-04-2016, 02:40 PM)Helmut Winkler Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-04-2016, 11:12 AM)lelle Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nick Pelling argues both in his blog (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and in his book (the curse of the Voynich) that the aiir/aiiv -groups in the vms might be "fake" medieval page references. I have never encountered any page references looking anything like the aiir/aiiv groups in any medieval texts. How did one provide page references in the 15:th century? Does anyone have examples to share of page references looking anything like these groups?
Thanks!
Medieval writers did not quote by page, how should they have done this when every transcription or copy had different page numbers if it had page numbers at all? If they did not just say e.g. Aristotle in de caelo, they gave book and chapter e.g. lib. vii, chap. 12, a custom which was common at least into the 17th c. They had page numbers and even numbering of columns, but not for references as we do them, they only had a reference for themselfes. You will not find references the NP way and I don't think he was able to give an example, but he is one of the great medievalists of our times, of course ...
As I recall, I first read about these in one of Malcolm Parkes' books: there is also a reasonable-sized literature on intra-document referencing methods from the medieval to early modern period. I have examples from a range of documents, which I will blog about on Cipher Mysteries as soon as I manage to reassemble my home PC *sigh*. I didn't realise that this was something anyone seriously doubted, but apparently this would seem to be the case from Helmut's comment. -
RE: Medieval page references
Anton > 28-04-2016, 03:11 PM
Helmut Winkler:
Ad hominem comments are prohibited by our rules (please refer to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Please abstain from such.
Expressing doubts in the professionalism of others is acceptable, but should be thoroughly substantiated and not thrown without any argumentation. In any case, in should not be phrased in ad hominem language.
nickpelling:
If you believe that any user violates our rules, please don't discuss that in the thread. Instead please use the "report" button (located to the bottom right of the postbit), which is the preferable means of reporting, or PM any active moderator or administrator. Please refer to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of our rules.
The decision whether to participate or not is of course at each user's discretion, and everyone may have any personal reasons; we cannot and won't influence personal reasons. What we have control over is our set of rules and policies and enforcement thereof. -
RE: Medieval page references
nickpelling > 28-04-2016, 03:41 PM
OK, thanks. Hope I don't wear the button out. :-o -
RE: Medieval page references
Sam G > 28-04-2016, 03:49 PM
(28-04-2016, 11:08 AM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I didn't realise that this was something anyone seriously doubted, but apparently this would seem to be the case from Helmut's comment.
There's quite a few people expressing doubts about the idea in the comments thread of your original blog post.
Quote:But can I throw out a brief addendum in the direction of David Jackson and/or other moderators here? The reason I don't actively participate in Voynich Ninja forum discussions is precisely because of people taking cheap, sarcastic shots both at my work and at me personally. The word for it isn't "snarky" or "funny", it's *abuse*. Shame on you all.
You sure love to dish out the "abuse" to others on your own blog. I'm surprised that you feel your own ideas should be above criticism. -
RE: Medieval page references
Anton > 28-04-2016, 03:57 PM
Hi Sam,
Let's keep to the subject topic. Other blogs are other blogs administered by their owners at their own discretion in the way that they like. You may wish to express your suggestions on how to improve them in those blogs directly. I don't think our forum is the right place for that kind of discussion.
What people do on this forum, we have an eye on; what they do on other resources, God does. -
RE: Medieval page references
lelle > 28-04-2016, 08:49 PM
NP: Thank you very much for your answer. I'm looking forward to your upcoming post. Also, I admire your research and would gladly see further contributions from you to this forum.
So, bottom line seems to be that aiir /aiiv might look like references to a 15th century person even though there are other more commonly used methods (?).
Let's say they are (of are supposed to look like) page references ; given that this method of referencing is "unpopular", maybe this could tell us something about its (the vms') origins... -
RE: Medieval page references
Koen G > 28-04-2016, 09:05 PM
Nick, I also think Voynich research would benefit from having people like you on board in this forum. Research and communication is splintered enough as is. We don't want the orchard to remain barren
Also, I must agree that the mods here do a very professional job of keeping ad hominems to a minimum and intervening when necessary.