Moderators are welcome to shift this thread to another part of the forum. I'm not sure where it should go.

Kunisada Utagawa Kuniyoshi has recently begun a series of blog-posts about toads, frogs and magic in Eastern Asia - mainly Japan.

I mention it to show two things 
1. Why I do not think the Voynich botanical pictures or 'leaf and root' sections done by, or from, Japanese sources
and 
2. Why a number of iconographic elements in the Vms are demonstrably inherited from the more generally Asian traditions in art.

The linked blogpost contains several, including 
* the type of wave-pattern used to represent ocean, and employed both technically (in maps and charts) and as a decorative element in Asian art and textiles.
* the cloud-band pattern which passes (via a geometrical version used in Islamic art) into the west.
* you will also see on the shoulders of a Samurai figure the sort of pattern used to signify laminae, whether of metal or lacquer.  

NB. The examples used in the blog-post date to the 19thC, but use of these customs in Asian art may be traced (as in fact I traced them) to long before the 15thC AD.  The history of ideas about frogs and toads I have not treated online, feeling that the only relevant fact was that the amphibian in the Vms was demonstably one associated with the same plant with which it appears in the Vms.  

Cheers.

I think it will be clearer if we just make a separate thread for the women's sleeves. In both Virgo and Gemini you can see that the edge of the sleeves is worked somehow, and we have grown accustomed to calling this "dagging". However, there are many different forms, and the VM drawing isn't the most refined. What do you think would constitute good parallels? If we want to use this detail to determine some date range, it's important to first understand what is meant.

I collected the first bunch I could find for some examples of the variety, what do you think? Should any be preferred or excluded?

   

The gallows have the same patterns on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as on the rosette folio in the middle right (III III III). Maybe that is unimportant but maybe not. It's not just groups of vertical bars, but three each.

Newcomers often wonder why so few specialists in disciplines vital to manuscript studies will participate in, or have any association with 'Voynich studies'.

One reason, I think, is that specialists immediately become aware of a general air of outmoded assumptions and theoretical bases where their own discipline is involved -  e.g. the 'Voynich' habit of trying to talk in terms of 'national' characters and national boundaries in a way which implies a level of exclusivity inappropriate to our period.   Another example, which I've tried to protest for nearly a decade, is the seemingly entrenched (but anachronistic) assumption that literalism is a 'natural' default when discussing images in the Vms  -  a fault especially pronounced in discussions of the botanical images. 

Anyway, about Palaeography..

These days it is recognised that to describe or provenance a script, one needs to take cultural, historical and other factors into account. It's not just a question of classifying something as Secretarial, or Gothic and so on.  Such terms as 'German l' sound ok to an amateur but a specialists' teeth are likely to be set on edge (sort of thing).

The good news is this: Litteragothica has begun a series of posts on this subject. I'll add a link to the first installment.  

You'll find that the posts are fairly short, full of solid material, and with really excellent sources for deeper study - if you want it.


Kindest regards to all who labour in the field.

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From Tacuinum Sanitatis You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

   

I've been thinking a lot about how we can collectively determine a date range for the Zodiac figures' dress. In another thread I tried to focus on one figure, but soon realized that this wouldn't be the best approach; it leaves too many items open to interpretation. However, while researching my previous blog post, I read something which might be more useful. Apparently sleeves were very much a locus for fashion evolution during the Middle Ages. 

Fortune has it that we have two very marked types of sleeves in the VM: wide, dagged ones for women and baggy sleeves for the Archer. If we were to collect examples of each and map the date points, it should be possible to create some kind of heat map for both. On the museum's note about the Devonshire Hunting Tapestries, it says that "Bagpipe sleeves seen in the tapestry went out of fashion around 1430." This provides a hypothetical upper limit for the male dress, which may or may not be challenged by our exercise.

EDIT: I'll make a separate thread for the female dress.

I'll keep the list updated here.

MEN:

• Basel Universitätsbibliothek A II 4, Freiburg, 1400, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
• Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-3480, France, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-5193 réserve, Paris, 1411, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal Ms-664 réserve, Paris, 1411, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL Add MS 18850 (Bedford Hours), Paris, 1423, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL Add MS 11575, Bruges, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL Harley 4431, Paris, 1410-1414,  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL King's 5, Northern Netherlands, 1405, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL Royal 45, England, ca. 1400, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BL Royal 20 B XX, Paris, 1400-1425, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BNF MS Fr. 23279, Paris, 1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BNF MS Fr. 12420, Paris, 1403, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BNF MS Fr. 616, Paris, 1405-1409, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BNF MS Fr. 9333, Northern Italy, 1380-1399, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• BSB Clm 8201, Bavaria, 1414, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Cod. Pal. germ. 471, Nürnberg, 1425-1431, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
• Cod. Pal. germ. 794, Schwaben, 1415, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Cotton MS Nero A X/2 (Gawain), England, 1400-1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Genève Ms. fr. 57, France, 1402, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Houghton Typ 127, France, 1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Huntington mssEL 26 C 9, England, 1400-1410, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Morgan MS M.396, Northeastern France, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Morgan MS M.453, Paris, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Morgan MS M.245, Paris, 1405, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• ÖNB Cod. Ser. n. 2644, North Italy, 1380-1399, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
• Pal. Lat. 1806, Augsburg, 1400-1430 You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Pal. Lat. 1726, Heidelberg, 1423, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Reg. Lat. 1290, Northern Italy, 1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Trinity R 15 21, England, 1408, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Werkstatt von 1418, Haguenau (Alsace), 1418 ca., many manuscripts.
  
• Werkstatt Diebold Lauber, Haguenau (Alsace), 1450 ca., many manuscripts.
  

• Aquila tower frescos, North Italy, 1400 ca., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
• Black Palace frescos, Coredo (Trentino), 1460 ca., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. 
  
• Castello della Manta frescos, North-West Italy, 1410-1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Devonshire Hunting Tapestries, South Netherlands, 1425-1430, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Fra Angelico, Italy, 1430-1437, various paintings from this period.
  
• Ortenberg altarpiece, Middle Rhineland, 1420, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
• Van Eyck's Madonna of Chancellor Rolin, Flanders/Burgundy, 1435, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
  

Hi everyone,

I am wondering one thing: What is EVA-b?

I checked René’s webpage about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which says:

Quote:As it turned out, there were three single characters that might be called unusual because they did not appear in any of the previously defined transcription alphabets, but which occurred more than 10 times in the MS. These three characters: b, u and z were assigned their own 'Basic Eva' letter (b, u and z respectively)

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1423)

   



You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1438)

To get a better picture of what we're dealing with, it would be interesting if we could find out the time and place(s) where we can expect the type of dress worn by the Gemini to emerge. Since this is only about the dress, I decided to make a separate thread for man and woman. It doesn't matter who is wearing it: man with woman, man on horse, man in battle... We're interested in the type of dress by itself.

This approach is valid because, as other members on the forum have pointed out, dress evolves separately from other image factors, especially during medieval times.

Now those who have studied medieval wardrobe to some extent can probably say something like "these clothes are typical for much of the 14th-15th century all over Europe", but this broad statement obviously won't help us much. We'll have to dig into the details. What was important enough to include in the drawing? Are there perhaps minor variations in style that could point us to a more specific region or time?

With subjects like these it is difficult to exclude personal impression, so just to help us sift through the available materia I propose to make use of a set of filters wich will allow us to attach a "score" to each individual piece of clothing. It is not the intention to find an image with a 100% score. If our best matches turn out to be only around 50%, that's perfectly fine. Each medieval drawing is unique, so finding a 100% match is not required. We're looking for tendencies.

I propose the following checks for the male clothing, but these should be discussed beforehand. I have doubted to include color, but then decided that it should be included since it might be part of regional or temporal preference, for all we know. And it's only one factor of many.

   

Houppelande: 

1. Belted
   
2. Length: between knees and ankles (?)
   
3. Lobed bottom (wavy)
   
4. Vertical lines in body (folds, plaits...)
   
5. Neck collar
   
6. Sleeve collars
   
7. Sleeves till wrist
   
8. Sleeves fitting/narrow at wrist
   
9. No overcoat
   
10. Green
    

1. Wider than head
   
2. Shaped like flat cylinder
   
3. Nothing on top
   
4. Nothing hanging down
   
5. Green
   

1. Separate from hose
   
2. Visible laces
   
3. About ankle height or a bit higher
   
4. Tip relatively rounded
   
5. Same color as hose