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[Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
- [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
-
[Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
ReneZ > 27-12-2016, 09:32 AM
(Copied from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.by KG)
Ernest Lillie wrote:
Quote:Anything you can provide will be much appreciated. I've long hoped that someone, at some time, had either photographed or hand copied the now obscured bits of "9 Rosette" --- like the above mentioned label and the worn out gutter between the S and SE disks.
I just scanned the relevant pages of the Th.Petersen hand transcription, and realised that it includes only 8 of the 9 circles. The upper right one is missing. I will need to go through the original at home to see if it is there. After that, I will post a link. Note, however, that unfortunately the quality is particularly bad for this part of the MS.
A few words about early sources: Voynich made photostats of the entire MS, in B/W. Many of these are still preserved in the Beinecke, and are probably the earliest copies. A few of them are on glass plates, still preserved, a technique that people interested in old photography can probably explain.
The Th.Petersen hand transcription is also very early, but later than these.
Another early record is the "Friedman copy", which may derive from photostats before the Th.Petersen transcription. It is also preserved in the Marshall library, and photocopies of it have been circulated. Friedman provided copies of these to his contacts, and one of these has been digitised. I have not looked at it for ages. I may still have it. It was not better than the copyflo, as far as I remember.
That last item is a printout of a very early microfilm made by the Beinecke, I don't know exactly when, but certainly before 1976. -
RE: Earliest copies of the MS
Koen G > 27-12-2016, 10:15 AM
Do you think the copies by Voynich are of good quality? If we want to find out if problematic areas like the faded edges of the large foldouts looked better before, might those be our best shot? -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
ReneZ > 27-12-2016, 04:20 PM
I have temporarily put a Zip file with the images here:
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It won't be there very long. It's about 3.7 MByte for 10 Tiff images.
There a a few interesting remarks, e.g. he clearly refers to the folio identification as:
f85v - You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which is the same as finally adopted by the Beinecke. At a later date, Anne Nill was still confused about this issue.
He also mentions a 'map of Beatus' near the lower right circle.
I'm afraid that the quality will be disappointing.
To answer Koen, it is possible that some of the older photostats / copies have some details
that are now harder to see, but I cannot easily verify it.
The old copyflo e.g. clearly showed the 'volcano' on the Rosettes page, that was not recognisable
as such on the 2004 scan, and then caused a surprise to some on the 2014 scan. -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
Sam G > 27-12-2016, 05:15 PM
The most badly damaged text in the VMS is the text in the fold between f101v2 and f101v1. It would be interesting if more of it was visible in the early copies/transcriptions or if it could somehow be revealed under UV lighting or by multispectral imaging. -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
E Lillie > 27-12-2016, 11:12 PM
Thank you very much, Rene. sadly, the deteriorated edge of the lower Right circle is fragmentary here as well . . . however.
The "Map of Biatus" ( Beatus ) that he mentions looks to be his interpretation of the "X" shaped structure at the center of the disk here:
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He follows the comment with an apparent citation from "Encyclopedia Britanica" ( 11th vol. 17, 634 "Map" ), perhaps the map image that this reminded him of.
Perhaps a field trip to Marshall Library with a color camera/scanner is in order
Best,
Ernest -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
Koen G > 27-12-2016, 11:30 PM
(27-12-2016, 11:12 PM)E Lillie Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Perhaps a field trip to Marshall Library with a color camera/scanner is in order
I was thinking along those lines since the library is probably not the kind used to digitizing such documents. It would be awesome if someone who lives close could go and snap some pictures
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RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
ReneZ > 28-12-2016, 07:50 AM
If there is interest, one could see what could be arranged.
Libraries usually don't like people walking in with their own equipment to digitise their materials....
The Marshall library hosts the William Friedman collection, and is frequented by people interested in the history of cryptography. I dare say all of them are familiar with the Voynich MS, and so is the library staff.
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The famous letter from Panofsky, answering the 15 questions from Friedman, is one of many items that has been digitised on request. -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
Diane > 30-12-2016, 01:01 PM
I would add that Panofsky didn't "write a letter" but responded with quite uncharacteristic brevity, taciturnity and lack of original opinion to a questionnaire sent him by Col. Friedman.
As testimony to the political atmosphere of the post-war period in America, it is certainly a valuable document, but as indication of Panofsky's views about this manuscript, it carries almost no information.
Far more informative is Anne Nill's record of Panofsky's assessment made when he saw the document about two decades earlier, in 1931. -
RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
Diane > 30-12-2016, 01:09 PM
Koen, Ernest,
It is important that the libraries do not gain a mistaken impression that those interested in the manuscript form any sort of formal association, but consists of wholly independent persons.
In the past, certain libraries have gained an idea (I don't know how) that they need only deal with one or two persons, and at one stage this error grew to such proportions that private correspondence from any 'Voynich researcher' had answers sent to entirely the wrong persons - apparently from an idea that we have nominated "representatives'.
If you have a request to make, do make a point of making all the arrangements yourself. That also ensures that you have first rights (after the library) to the digitizations.
- advice from experience.
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RE: [Copy] Discussion: Earliest copies of the MS
ReneZ > 30-12-2016, 05:56 PM
(30-12-2016, 01:01 PM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would add that Panofsky didn't "write a letter" but responded with quite uncharacteristic brevity, taciturnity and lack of original opinion to a questionnaire sent him by Col. Friedman.
That impression could result from the very brief summary of the letter that was posted many years ago by Jim Reeds, and which I had on my site until a few months ago.
In the mean time, I obtained a complete copy of the letter, and all related information can be found here:
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