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• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  Linda > 29-07-2022, 04:58 PM

  If the red wings are important then these images would speak against this being so. Admittedly i am no expert on the subject, but was able to find examples that do not display this trait. 
  
  

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  Juan_Sali > 29-07-2022, 06:04 PM

     
  The Archangel Michael is the one who is most commonly shown You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  of people on scales on Judgement Day althoung the bible doesnt mention him doing this task.
  The top of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents the scales and the Final Jugdement's criteria.
  
  There are many representations of him.
     
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The seven flowers forming the hook.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. refers to the Final Judgement, the criteria to determine who will go to eternal punishment and who will go to eternal life.
  The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Eternal pusnisment or etenal life?
  
  As a conclusion several elements point to the Judgement Day in general or Saint Michael in particular.

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  R. Sale > 29-07-2022, 08:43 PM

  There are several aspects to the discussion. Is the presence of red paint on the VMs wings an indicator for an iconic identification connecting to representations of Saint Michael? No, because there are various representations of Saint Michael where red paint is not used on the wings or elsewhere.
  
  Furthermore, there are red wings found on other archangels, by an artist who died in 1368.
  
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  The iconic interpretation is not universal. That does not mean that it could not have been regional or cultural. Here is where the interpretation seems to fit. Saint Michael is sometimes depicted with red wings, or with red areas on the wings. There is also another set of illustrations where 'the red is on' a cloak or cape.  [Fabric versus feathers] It's sometimes difficult to find provenance for some images, but it seems that red cloak images tend to be Spanish.
  
  So, back at the VMs, are the red painted areas a part of the wing, OR are they part of a cloak that covers the shoulders of the wings??? Fabric or feather? And does the possible interpretation of a red cloak also imply a Spanish connotation - and why not? Already, there is Shirakatsi. The interpretation my not be universally iconic, but it may still be valid, or useful, to the VMs artist.
  
  To what extent was Portugal similar to the other Spanish states in the representation of Saint Michael? To what extent was Isabella of Portugal influential in the Burgundian state?
  
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  Another aspect is the orientation of the wings. Do the tips point up, sideways, opposite, or down. The VMs has feathers pointed in all directions, so it's more ambiguity, but if the wings were folded or closed, there would not be feathers standing up. Therefore, the VMs wings should be considered raised. And if raised wings are required, there are significantly fewer potential candidates. The wings on the representation of Saint Michael in the church at Schwabisch Hall are fully extended. And partly red.
  
  It's not unlike the Vms artist to combine elements from disparate sources, it's practically a modus operandi.
  
  And after all this subtle trickery on the visual side, what's happening on the linguistic side? If the image is intended to reference Saint Michael, is the text a prayer?

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  RobGea > 30-07-2022, 03:32 PM

  Idle speculation, why not a Seraph?
  
  The wings could be separated into upper, mid , lower, with a bilateral symmetry giving 6 wings.
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  Here is a photo of a 14th century embroidery
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  One from circa 1420, the "Seraphim with halo, the crucified Christ" in the Wellcome Library
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• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  R. Sale > 30-07-2022, 06:48 PM

  Why not a seraph?
  
  Let's not call it idle speculation. Let's call it a discussion regarding potential interpretation. When it works well, one thing leads to another, then to another. It also seems to be true that illustrations in the VMs can be the result of influences from multiple sources, rather than clearly representing a singular source. The use of multiple sources makes interpretation more difficult.
  
  Clearly, the VMs wings have feathers in three 'sections': upward, outward, and downward. Why not a seraph? These are only wings. Why not a subtle suggestion of a seraph's six-wing conformation? Why not??
  
  And look - another connection to the Berry library.
  
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• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  R. Sale > 31-07-2022, 10:27 PM

  Looking back at the 2017 Ninja discussion, the plant in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was identified as costmary (Tanacetum balsamita). I'm not in the botany department, but it looks reasonable to me. However, the conversational thread wanders off in other direction.
  
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  Costmary was also called the herb of the Virgin. It's apparently not an exclusive designation, however. So, the denoting as such really didn't add much to the discussion.
  
  Now there are a greater number of VMs illustrations with potential religious content, including the wreath of the Virgin, the arches of the Virgin, the VMs Virgo medallion as influenced by images of the Virgin Mary, why not the herb of the Virgin as well?
  
  Then, there is the question: What does the archangel Saint Michael have to do with the Virgin Mary? I'm certainly no religious scholar, but here's an answer.
  
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  One thing leads to another.

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  Juan_Sali > 01-08-2022, 05:16 PM

  (31-07-2022, 10:27 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now there are a greater number of VMs illustrations with potential religious content

  There are few religious elements in the VMs easy to see: crosses, nebuly lintes, rainbows. The rest are more elaborated concepts difficult to find due to our lack of knowledge, we cant find what we ignore.
  Is there any expert on Christian religion in the middle ages following this forum?

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  R. Sale > 01-08-2022, 07:07 PM

  (01-08-2022, 05:16 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (31-07-2022, 10:27 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now there are a greater number of VMs illustrations with potential religious content

  There are few religious elements in the VMs easy to see: crosses, nebuly lintes, rainbows. The rest are more elaborated concepts difficult to find due to our lack of knowledge, we cant find what we ignore.
  Is there any expert on Christian religion in the middle ages following this forum?

  
  Hey, I thought it was you - the expert. The "rho-chi" thing is obvious *once you can see that it's there*! So, there really are two problems. Knowing what to look for. Knowing that there is trickery involved. Obviously, if the Christian 'Chi-rho' is the message, it could certainly have been presented more plainly and clearly. Just put two big letters on a page. That wasn't what was done. And so, we might ask, why?
  
  Well, the answer isn't on the page, <exactly>, but part of the answer seems to accumulate with the increasing set of VMs interpretations that also have religious content and potentially coordinate with historical places and events compatible with the C-14 info.
  
  The other part is trickery, ambiguity, disguise. The cosmos, Melusine, White Aries, the Agnus Dei, the Golden Fleece, the "rho-chi", the potential references to Mariology and the Colettine Poor Clares and more. 
  
  The cosmic trick is that identification based on appearance will fail. Appearance has been altered and removed as a factor of interpretation and identification. Interpretation must rely on content and structure. And the 43 undulations, which is also ambiguous. Melusine imposes a specific, mythological identity upon a "generic" mermaid. White Aries is an example of dual interpretation, and so on.
  
  Koen once asked about the 15th century perception of swallowtail merlons, but really we should be working on the 15th century of perception of everything. While little in the VMs is guaranteed, the set of compatible, historical interpretations is expanding, but what's with the trickery?

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-08-2022, 08:08 PM

  It is not seen because it is ignored, but because it is simply not there.
  They say you should let your imagination run wild. But in science, we should put on the brakes more often.
  And some people should really put the pedal to the metal.
  
  And it's not "we" who haven't understood, it's "you".

• RE: f46v San Michael ?

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-08-2022, 08:52 PM

  And while I'm at it.
  Basically, the golden fleece and the symbol of the Agnus Dei are represented with the head and horns of the ram.
  So why don't I see it in the VM.
  The one is more like a dead cat than a ram.
  
  It is simply not there. It's as simple as that.
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