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f46v San Michael ?
- f46v San Michael ?
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f46v San Michael ?
Juan_Sali > 20-07-2022, 02:07 PM
I open this thread to discuss the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as a reference to San Michael.
A detail of the "wings" are the red bands on the top of both "wings".
Here are samples of San Michael with red feathers on the top on the wings.
From left to right:
SYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. unknown artist. Getty Museum
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. C 1405. Metropolitan Museum
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Spain) 1435-1445 -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
Ruby Novacna > 21-07-2022, 06:54 AM
And what do you think is the reason for St Michael's presence in this image?
Could it be related to the name of the plant, to healing, to a character or a city? -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
Juan_Sali > 21-07-2022, 01:36 PM
(21-07-2022, 06:54 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And what do you think is the reason for St Michael's presence in this image?
My theory is that the herbal section is a bible. There is a previous attempt to conect the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Could it be related to the name of the plant, to healing, to a character or a city?
San Michael battling the dragon apears in Apocalipsis 12:7. -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
Ruby Novacna > 21-07-2022, 07:20 PM
In the images you presented, the Archangel is above the dragon, whereas on 46v he would be in the lower part of the image, does this make logical sense? -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
Juan_Sali > 22-07-2022, 12:06 PM
As the roots of any plant are the lower partt it is logic for a simbolic representation involving the roots to be in the lower part.
I presented images of the Archanchel to show samples of red colors on the top on his wings. I havent said that the drake is represented in the roots of the 46v.
The imaginery of the VM is tricky, it doesnt show the whole but parts of it so we have to guess the whole gathering the parts. It would be easier for a 15th century human than for a human of the 21th century. -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
R. Sale > 27-07-2022, 07:48 PM
While occupying the expected place of a plant's roots, the image clearly looks more like a pair of wings that are somewhat overlapped. In heraldry conjoined wings are called a "vol".
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In Siebmacher, with 2500+ insignia, I found only two examples of conjoined wings, with a star between. For separated pairs of wings, there were more than a dozen examples.
Conjoined wings are rare, but they are present in other, earlier sources. In some ways heraldic wings and heraldic antlers are treated similarly.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And getting back to the VMs, the feathers do look rather spikey. To see how wings and feathers were drawn in a particular source, it's better to look at the crests than at the charges. What's unusual then is not the "feathers" that go up in the VMs illustration, but the "feathers" that go down. But then, not all "roots" can go up.
Further interpretation has been proposed for the VMs "wings". Perhaps there should be two black eagle-heads where there are none? Not to mention two feet and a tail.
Is the use of red paint on the wings indicative of Saint Michael? Red is used in several illustrations, but there are also depictions where the wings are not painted red.
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The wings are gold and blue. Maybe Delft had this 'thing' with blue?
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
Ruby Novacna > 28-07-2022, 08:28 AM
(27-07-2022, 07:48 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To see how wings and feathers were drawn in a particular source, it's better to look at the crests than at the charges. What's unusual then is not the "feathers" that go up in the VMs illustration, but the "feathers" that go down.
I don't really understand your idea, why do you prefer to switch to the crest? -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
R. Sale > 28-07-2022, 06:39 PM
Wings in crests may be used in various examples (heraldic achievements) even when there are no wings in the insignia and in examples where there are eagles in the insignia, but only wings in the crest. There are more of these examples, so they're easier to find. The artistic techniques can be visualized. Frequently there are a fair number of feathers that are standing up vertically in the wings.
Finding an actual vol of conjoined wings as a heraldic charge before 1500 is pretty uncommon. -
RE: f46v San Michael ?
R. Sale > 28-07-2022, 07:08 PM
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RE: f46v San Michael ?
Juan_Sali > 28-07-2022, 10:31 PM
(27-07-2022, 07:48 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is the use of red paint on the wings indicative of Saint Michael? Red is used in several illustrations, but there are also depictions where the wings are not painted red.
The relevant question is if top red wings were used to paint another angels appart from Saint Michael or they were used mainly with Saint Michael. If a human of that period saw the "winged" roots and his/her first thought was: it is Saint Michael.