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Let there be meaning

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• Let there be meaning

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 25-10-2023, 07:12 PM

  what happens to ol in both words?  ol = as

• RE: Let there be meaning

  oshfdk > 26-10-2023, 02:09 AM

  So to read this do we need to rearrange the words?

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 26-10-2023, 08:27 AM

  I don't rearrange the words. It is the same order.
  What I don't know is what the translator does.
  If I assume that the words are in the order according to German grammar, it is possible that Google's AI puts them in the right order (Latin grammar) and then compares it with the 6.5 million comparison sentences. But I don't notice that, because I don't speak Latin or a comparable language. I just check the words and enter them in that order. The rest is done by the AI. I don't need Google as a translator, more as a sentence builder.
  What else I do, I notice a possible shift in tone in the dialect, in relation to my language.
  Example: Züri-tütsch, Bern-dütsch, Basler-diitsch. Variants (German) are likely. 600 years and the region allow for variations.
  Worse if the deviations are too strong.
  Example: bischen, bisle, bitzli, .....Grüsse Dich, Grüess di, Grüezi. And that alone in German.
  What about Latin dialects?

• RE: Let there be meaning

  oshfdk > 26-10-2023, 10:50 AM

  (26-10-2023, 08:27 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't rearrange the words. It is the same order.

  
  I still don't get it. Could you explain a bit more?
  
  dor deol dy doldaiin
  
  becomes
  
  deas tum tas tatis
  
  did I get it right? So, dor is deas, deol is tum, dy is tas and doldaiin is tatis?

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-12-2023, 09:00 AM

  Actually, I wanted to write a treatise first. But I'm just going to go ahead on a minimal basis.
  As long as only simple symbols are used, the implementation is just as simple.
     
  
  It becomes more complicated when combinations are added, as in the example above. And Eva "S" + "9" = etum/etus.
     
  
  This results in interesting sentences.
  Example:
         
  
  Now you could argue that Google translates everything anyway.
  If it simply translates everything, why don't I get sentences like "today noodle soup at half price", or "flies in oil run better with toothache"?
  There are many more possibilities for stupid sentences than for accurate ones. So leave it the same.
  
  One of the jars in the root section simply says "prepared"
  
  Even if it's not classical Latin in the VM, it's still very close.
  Today I think the text makes sense and the puzzle can be solved.
  Even if I still don't understand everything, it still shows me the way.
  A little insight into my work. Thanks

• RE: Let there be meaning

  MarcoP > 01-12-2023, 10:17 AM

  (01-12-2023, 09:00 AM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If it simply translates everything, why don't I get sentences like "today noodle soup at half price", or "flies in oil run better with toothache"?

  
  I don't think that "simply" applies to neural network translation. These are immensely complex systems with millions and millions of parameters. What we can be certain of is that the "garbage-in garbage-out" rule still holds. When fed non-linguistic input, the outputs are quite unpredictable. Since the basis is statistical, the system probaly favours more frequent words, rather than things like "toothache" or "noodles": with a meaningless input, Google translate must basically pick words in some arbitrary way, using word frequency together with word similarity sounds reasonable. 
  Maybe, if you want funnier results, you could try longer words?

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-12-2023, 11:56 AM

  That may be the case, but they are still interesting sentences. It's not that easy to sweep them under the carpet.
  Basically, you can't always just stir the soup. In fact, you have to try it at some point.

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 01-12-2023, 12:17 PM

  What do you mean by longer words?
     
  
  I'm just starting out and have only just scratched the surface.
         
  
  Example of the harmony of words.
  Can you see the connection?
  
  I also thought that it wasn't a good idea to describe my own work at this point.
  And I won't continue to do so.

• RE: Let there be meaning

  ReneZ > 03-12-2023, 02:15 AM

  With respect to the Google translate results above....
  
  In my opinion, "appreciate the age of one"  and "each one of them will be saved as well", are NOT meaningful sentences, or sentence fragments. They are exactly the types of phrases that people have been getting out of the Voynich MS text ever since Levitov.
  To the contrary "today noodle soup at half price" IS meaningful. It conveys something.
  
  It is actually easy to check the Google translate results, if they are for a language one does not know.
  That procedure is even a good idea if the tool is used to communicate with someone using their unknown (to us) language.
  
  It is correct that GTr converts "quacenum unum eruum tum quam" to "each one of them will be saved as well", but does it also mean that? Does it even mean anything? Is it real Latin?.
  Just click the arrows to swap the input and output languages.
  
  Then "each one of them will be saved as well" will become: "unusquisque autem eorum salvus erit".
  Now THAT is Latin. And it looks nothing whatsoever like the original input words. Now swap again, and the English becomes: "but every one of them will be saved", which is also far better.
  
  In all proposed thranslations of the MS, one has to try to imagine what the author was trying to convey, and once one has an idea of that, then see if the words one has found actually convey that.
  
  That is not specific to this example.

• RE: Let there be meaning

  Aga Tentakulus > 03-12-2023, 06:05 AM

  That may all be true, but that's how I see it.
  "Noodle soup at half price today" may be a clear statement. But in relation to a page with plants in the VM, it's absolute rubbish. Where does which sentence make sense?
  
  I don't know when a sentence starts and when it ends. Individual words alone are useless. I use a series of words in succession where I already know them.
  
  Whether it's proper Latin or not is of secondary importance. I use the Latin as a buffer because it seems to come closest to the VM. In my language, I need German as a buffer.
  Because "de da da isch chli chli" can't be translated directly into English. I translate it into German (because it's the closest language) so I get "der da dort ist ein wenig klein" and that's now in English. That one there is a little small.
  
  So I can't judge whether in VM a single "8" now means "de di te or ti. It's a question of dialect. You need several words in a row to know exactly.
  
  
  But it can be explained that "8, 9, S, 89, S9, 89S, d/t,um, et, etum, tumet, no matter in which combination they occur, make perfect sense. And that without much correction and in Latin.
  If I now want to insert a new symbol into the series, I have to be sure, and it is used and checked in many possible combinations. Only then do I move on to the next one.
  
  But I can't tell where "89" is now "tum" or "dum". Example.
     
  
  But I am sure that the next example fits into the series.
     
  
  So I only give Google the one where the test series also holds up. I'm not cheating myself.
  
  And when Google shows me the very first sentence in the VM "We are one big community......". That doesn't sound bad to me, because I couldn't find a better way to start. Definitely better than menu suggestions for the coming year. Even if both make sense.
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